Have We Forgotten How to Play? Rediscovering Joy and Laughter

[00:00:03] Welcome to The Lighten Up Project, the show that reminds us that healing doesn't have to be heavy. I'm Malcolm Grissom, the stand-up CEO and founder of the World Laughter Organization. Let's explore how humor, heart, and play save the day and create spaces for healing and connection.

[00:00:33] So let's get ready to laugh, learn, and lighten up. Hey, thank you ladies and gentlemen for tuning in once again for the The Lighten Up Project.

[00:00:57] I am Malcolm Grissom, the stand-up CEO and founder of the World Laughter Organization. And you're not. Today, I have a wonderful guest as my guests are all wonderful. I tell you my guests are wonderful. Don't I take care of you? I take care of my peeps.

[00:01:22] You are my peeps and I bring wonderful people to meet you. It's all about connection, people. And today is no different. So today I have a fabulous Stephanie Shane. She is a coach. She is an international author.

[00:01:48] And she coaches on how to be an author. She's editor. So she helps edit books. Helps people who are wanting to become authors. And she, I'm sure, edits books for them and helps them get to where they want to be and add their voice to the world. Which is, I think, is the one.

[00:02:17] And here, she's written six books. And here's what I really love. She has taken the step to doing what she's always wanted to do. She is now moved closer to the beach. So she is now, she is living a dream. She is living a dream.

[00:02:43] And that is wonderful, wonderful. So please help me welcome Susan Crossman. I am so happy to be here with you, Malcolm. Thank you so much for including me in this amazing project that you're running. I'm just thrilled. Yeah. Just thrilled. Yeah.

[00:03:08] Would you, I'd like to invite you to join me in 20 seconds of spontaneous laughter. Oops. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Let's just keep it going. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:03:59] Do I have to stop now? Stop. What? He said this. Oh, boy. That's very fun. Yes. Uh-oh. Oops.

[00:04:29] I've got the giggles now. Even better. Oh, boy.

[00:04:53] Anyway, Susan, what is your relationship with laughter? It's a sacred relationship, Malcolm. It really is. I think it's something I want to do more and more and more and more. It's something at different phases of my life I haven't done much of at all.

[00:05:19] And I think there's just so much stress relief in laughter, but also it's the path to joy. And we don't talk about that a lot in our world. There are a lot of things we talk about that are a long way from joy. But I think laughter is really the key to groundedness and happiness. And if you can't laugh, then there's something wrong. Yeah. It's something you need to fix.

[00:05:50] Where in your life, where is it easy or easier for you to find genuine laughter? And then where is it more difficult? And what do you do about it? Oh, that's a really good question. I would say it's really easy for me to laugh when I'm with my kids.

[00:06:17] I have somehow raised really fun children. They're mature people now. You know, they're not 12. They're all adults. And I find any time I'm with any of them, they just get me going. They all have a really great sense of humor. They know exactly how to push their mother's buttons to make me laugh. And they like to do that. So it's really fun for me to be with my kids.

[00:06:44] I've got a bunch of kids. Thank you. Thank you. That actually reminds me because I was so... This is such a new concept for me that I forgot about it, you know, with my fried brain. So what we're starting now is a little experiment.

[00:07:10] It's called the Two Truths and a Lie intro. So Susan has provided me with two truths and a lie. What I'm going to do for all of you out there is I'm going to give that to you.

[00:07:29] And then throughout the interview, I'd like you to keep thinking about that and see if you can guess which one is the lie and which are the truths. And then at the very end of the interview, then Susan is going to divulge the answer. Ooh. It's our mystery. Okay.

[00:08:00] Two truths and a lie. The information that Susan has given me is that she has earned her private pilot's license when she was only 23 years old. She is now a mother and stepmother of five children. Now, I know she said she was a mother, but you don't know how many. Okay.

[00:08:29] So she said five children and she also breeds chocolate labrador puppies as a hobby. So be tuning in. You may get some crumbs. You may get some answers. But really, at the end of our interview is when you'll find out for sure.

[00:09:01] All right. So Susan. Okay. I love it. You're such a rascal. I love that. You know, actually, I've always been a rascal. My Hawaiian name is Kalohe and Kalohe is rascal. So... That's the price. Absolutely. That fits you to a T. Always, always, always. Yeah.

[00:09:31] All right. So... Okay. Okay. So laughter and you had... I didn't answer the other part of your question, which was where do I... Where is it hard for me? Where is it hard for you? And I would say that in my work, I work with a lot of people who have experienced a lot of traumatic things. And they've done their healing work. And now they want to write books.

[00:09:56] Generally speaking, most of my clients, they want to write books based on their difficult experiences and their healing journey. And now they want to share with other people, hey, there's a way to get over these awful hard things. Like you can still live a magnificent, happy life, fulfilled life, despite having gone through difficulties. Big, big, big, big challenges.

[00:10:22] And so it's very hard for me to find that funny. You know, like it's... That's when I'm in a space of compassion and love and support and appreciation and gratitude for them, for their willingness to help other people get through that kind of experience. It's not a funny thing usually. Usually. I mean, often, you know, it's not all gloom and doom by any stretch.

[00:10:48] I have a lot of fun with my clients too, but generally when I'm doing my work, whether it's editing or coaching, I'm not breaking out in laughter. In fact, that would probably be pretty inappropriate if I think of it. Not a great time to be breaking out into laughter. And I don't feel like it anyway, but yeah. Well, I'm glad that you brought that up because that brings me to talk about in episode two

[00:11:17] of our podcast. I talk about humor and I talk about the definition of humor and the vast way of looking at humor. humor and I talk about how humor to most people, when they think of it, they think comedy, they think jokes.

[00:11:44] That's the first thing that pops up in their head. And for me, I'd like to think of humor as a big family tree, right? So laughter are, I'm sorry, not laughter, but jokes and comedy are only, there are only two

[00:12:12] of the branches on the humor tree. So jokes and comedy are those man-made things that, those things that we go through structures to create, you know, there's an actual joke structure. There's an actual structure of comedy. That's what comedy is for the most part. When it boils down to it, it's a bunch of structures.

[00:12:42] And then there's another branch, which is where the laughter comes from, but it's really more play. It's really more play. And so when people say, I don't have a sense of humor, they're thinking of the comedy, you know, comedy side. I don't tell jokes.

[00:13:11] I don't know how to tell jokes. I'm not a funny person. Therefore, I don't have a sense of humor. But that's incorrect because there's the play part and all of us played as a kid. We came out of the womb, even animals play. Animals, animals play.

[00:13:37] And I talk all about this in this second episode, animals play. But there's that natural sense of play that we have. And so this leads me to ask this next question to you. So there are, I understand there are times when laughter may not be appropriate, especially

[00:14:02] because a lot of people still, a lot of people think that laughing, well, when you're laughing at something, you're laughing. Maybe you might be laughing at them. Maybe you might be laughing at the situation. You're not taking the situation seriously.

[00:14:25] So laughter equals not serious to a lot of people still. And I get that. And so I get when you say it's not appropriate and sometimes for you to laugh during these serious moments.

[00:14:50] However, I wonder and share the question to you. Do you think in these serious moments that you're talking about, there is a space for play? Well, that's a good question. I guess it would depend on the situation.

[00:15:16] You know, if someone is telling you how they were sexually abused as a child, there's an element of wanting to hold the container for that emotional part of the experience. And I don't, maybe there could be, depends on where that person is in their relationship to the experience. You know, I have spoken with people who've been through that kind of experience and they

[00:15:43] were able to laugh at it a little bit, you know, which it takes an enormous amount of healing to get to the point where you can have that perspective on it and in relationship to your life. And I think for me, I would take my cue from the individual I'm speaking with. If they're able to find humor in it, then I'll go with that. But mostly I want to really honor and respect a person's experience and where they are in their journey.

[00:16:13] For sure. Yeah. Play. I love play. I just love that you like play too, Malcolm, because I think there's almost always room for some play in our lives. And we forget. We forget to play. We do. What's one moment or one place in your life where you are now reclaiming a sense of joy,

[00:16:41] a sense of play that you had as a kid and you're now reclaiming it as your own? Well, you mentioned it earlier when you talked about me moving to the beach. And I tell you, my youngest child left home almost a year ago now. And I was widowed 18 years ago now almost and had very young children to look after.

[00:17:10] So I had 18 years of commitment and responsibility to raising my kids and building my business and writing my books and looking after my mother. And there was a lot of not very playful moments in that experience. And I didn't love every minute of it, but I certainly loved a lot of raising my kids. But there was a lot of responsibility. And I was living where I was living because it made sense as a parent that I facilitate my children's experience.

[00:17:39] Well, they moved out and I had to take a look at my life and go, well, what would really light my fire? Like, what do I want now? Like, I'm at a phase now where I get to pick. I'm still widowed, still single. And what I realized was, gosh, I love a beach. My family had a cottage growing up and I've come back to the town that the cottage was in as a kid. And I thought, yeah, that's what I want.

[00:18:07] I want to put some beach in my life. And so that's where I am now. Walking on the beach gives me an incredible amount of joy. It is just, even in the winter, it's terrible blustery when I'm in Canada. Blustery cold. It's minus 24 or some darn thing today. And the snow and didn't go out on the beach today, but almost every other day I've been out on that beach, just reveling and being there, just the joy of being on a beach makes

[00:18:37] me happy. And so I've reclaimed that part for me. That the, you know, what is it that was going to, do I, did I remember being happy around as a kid? And it was the beach and it's still true. I still love a beach. Great. I love. Even in the winter, even in the winter. Yeah. It's awesome. Yes. Yes. The beaches and forest.

[00:19:05] I love, I love both beaches and forest. There's just nothing about getting out there in nature. Well, that's the other piece. Sorry. No, go ahead. Well, I was going to say the other magical part of where I live now is that I'm also a 10 minute drive from an enormous provincial park, an enormous forest. And there are probably 15 hiking trails in there. And I'm in there every weekend, every Saturday and Sunday I go hiking.

[00:19:34] And I, so I get you about the forest. That's the other magnificent part of where I live now. Just being nurtured by nature. Wow. Yeah. Love it. Love it. You are lucky. So, who was the first person that ever made you feel safe or heard or seen?

[00:20:05] Probably my dad. I had great parents. I was very lucky. I was loved as a child. I was brought into a family where love was not always perfectly practiced, but it was there. And my dad was one of the kindest, sweetest people I've ever met. And he listened really well. And he and my mother too, although my mother was the disciplinarian in the family. My mother kept us on track.

[00:20:35] But she had a magnificent sense of humor. Actually, both my parents had fabulous senses of humor. But yeah, I'd say my dad was the one who really listened to me and laughed at me. I was the jokester in the family and goofy. I was goofy as a kid. Uh-huh. My dad laughed at all the right times. Right. Okay. All right.

[00:21:00] Actually, that phrase, all the right times, just reminded me of my aunt. Ted's, this one particular aunt that I'm thinking of passed away years and years ago. But do you know that movie? It's called Quickly Down Under. It has Tom Selleck stars.

[00:21:29] I do know that movie. I do know that movie. Yes. Okay. Yes. So she turned me on to that movie. I was just, I was maybe eight, nine. No. I, no, I had to have been, no, the movie's not that old. So I was, no, I was in my teens. I was in my teens.

[00:21:57] And she introduced that movie to me and had me sit down and watch the movie one day, one summer when I was up visiting her and my uncle. And she was so happy afterwards. I remember specifically she used that phrase.

[00:22:24] I'm so happy you left because you laughed at all the right times. I thought it was just laughter. And, and I guess I bring that up because the laughter is such a great connector. It's, you know, I can laugh. I have an episode. Actually, I haven't even, it's an upcoming episode.

[00:22:54] It is about how laughter saved my life. And it's an episode where I really talk about my relationship with my father and hearing laughter now. My father is also past, but hearing the laughter now just brings me closer to him and reminds me of him.

[00:23:23] Just like, just like that phrase and just like laughter still reminds me of my aunt. And watching that movie and laughing in all the right places. Yeah, good job. Anyway, I'm, I'm getting off track here talking about me and it's not about me. It's about you. So it's about us. It's about us. Thank you for saying that.

[00:23:53] Thank you for saying that. You talked about your mother and taking care of your mother now. So you said that your mother growing up, your mother was more the disciplinarian, but now you're taking care of her. Have you found yourself in that role of disciplinarian?

[00:24:19] Have, has your mother, has her attitude towards life changed? Oh, yeah. Good question. Well, she actually passed away two years ago at age 90. Okay. But my mom, she had a massive stroke when she was 50. So, yeah, I was, I was just in my very early 20s.

[00:24:41] And at that point, I was just finishing college, university here and went home to look after her rehabilitation is what happened. And she lost the entire left use, use of her left side of her body. So she was able to walk again. We got her walking after through the rehabilitation, but her left, her left arm and hand never came back. So she spent 40 years as a hemiplegic.

[00:25:10] And you'd think that, you know, you'd think that that would really end a person's life almost, the emotional and sort of the hope that people have. But honestly, Malcolm, she was, she was a firecracker, but she did change. Her personality did change and her whole life got ripped out from under her, as you can imagine.

[00:25:31] She was a very active human being and into like, she was, she went bowling and she played bridge and she, oh golly, she golfed. And she was an amazing craftsperson. She was a beautiful knitter and she sewed and she crocheted. She sewed all of these are hand things, which she had to give up. She couldn't do it anymore.

[00:25:52] So, so yeah, for that first year, particularly, I was, I lived with my parents and looked at, looked after her rehabilitation. But then I, my dad kicked me out of the house basically and said, you need to leave now or you will never leave. And so he facilitated me into going on and having my life. And then when my husband passed away, I moved back to being 15 minutes away from my mom. She wanted to live independently.

[00:26:22] And then she was a fierce guardian of her independence. And one of the funniest people I've ever met, like that woman was by this time confined to a wheelchair and had the best sense of humor. Even so, I mean, she could be pretty grumpy. She could still be a disciplinarian, no matter how old I got. She still felt it was her job to tell me what I was doing wrong. But she, she could laugh too, which was a beautiful gift for all of us.

[00:26:53] Can I tell you one story about, about kind of her sense of humor? Oh, yeah. That kind of illustrates it. So I had left one of my kids with my mom to babysit one day. And this, this was kind of a normal thing. She did, because we lived so closely, she, she was able to, once they were big enough and she didn't have to hold them and they weren't running, you know, they weren't a flight risk.

[00:27:18] But at about age, maybe 10, that kind of age, it was a good match for my kids to spend time with their grandmother. And my daughter loved playing charades. You know that game, charades? And so Heather used to make up all the clues and try and trick my mother, you know, give her a really good one. And so one day my mother pulled the clue that she had to act out.

[00:27:44] And she just looked at the clue and broke out into hysterical laughter because what she had to act out was the title of a book Heather loved at the time called Witches Don't Do Backflips. Backflips. So you could just imagine this lady with one arm and one leg having to demonstrate witches don't do backflips. And that my mother pretty much hit the floor in laughter at that point. And the two of them got, you know, like it was just so ridiculous.

[00:28:14] But she, she found that really, really funny. What's one thing, what's our one moment in your life recently where you have just genuinely laughed? Just out now, just, you know, really let go. It's not, you know, it really, it's not goals, you know, it was so funny.

[00:28:44] Tell me one moment in your recent life that you just let go. Okay, so I got, I've got one right away. My, another daughter gave me for Christmas a beautiful bird feeder. And because I love the birds and I don't have a bird feeder. I was just thrilled to get this bird feeder.

[00:29:08] And I tried it in a couple of different places, but the squirrels kept getting at the bird, bird seed. And that wasn't the idea, you know, like, so it was kind of funny to watch these squirrels and their antics, how they ended up consuming all of the bird seed in this thing. Well, I thought I had outsmarted them. And I was telling my daughter, I've got it figured out now. Finally, I have put this bird feeder in a place these squirrels will not be able to get on it. And I had suspended it from a tree.

[00:29:38] And a really long, skinny wire was probably two feet. Like, and there was nothing to this wire. Like, there's no way a squirrel could climb down it to get onto the bird feeder. And so I was, she thought, yeah, sure you have mom. Like, they're pretty smart, these squirrels. And so we were kind of giggling about how smart I thought I was. And the next thing I knew, I looked out and saw that there was a squirrel swinging on my bird feeder.

[00:30:07] He had figured out how to get onto this thing. So I called Michelle and said, oh my gosh, you, you're going to believe this. They got me. They really got me. Well, we both howled about that. And then the next day, it got even worse because I looked out and the bird feeder was gone. So I called Michelle and I said, you're not going to believe this. They stole my bird feeder.

[00:30:36] So we had a good laugh about that. How do these little rodents end up stealing my, they stole it. It's gone out of my backyard. So that, I found that we both found that pretty funny, but we, we had a good laugh about that. The battle for the bird seed continues though. I'm going to, I'm going to get another bird feeder. Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:31:07] So what is one, what is one belief about humor or about play that you've had to unlearn? Oh, a belief about play that I've had to unlearn, you know. Or humor. He is a one.

[00:31:35] You know, or, well, I, I like that question because I think one thing that I've had to relearn is I somehow grew up with a belief that relationships are serious. There's something you take really seriously. And I've come to realize that a relationship is another way to play. It's actually a way to play. And if you and the person you're in a relationship, and I mean friendships and love relationships

[00:32:05] or parenting or whatever, that if, if we can look at that relationship as simply another way to play, it doesn't have to always be serious. You know, when I, when I think about parenting is a good example is like, well, I always thought I had to be the serious one. And I, like my mother, I had to lay down the law and I had to have rules for my kids. And I've given all that up. I don't, I don't, I, I, that's not my job.

[00:32:33] My job with my kids and my friends and everybody in my life is like, how, how can we play together and have a really good time together? Is that? Is that? I love that. I love that. Okay. Here's one. Play, if play had a job title, what role would it play in our culture right now?

[00:33:01] You mean the way our culture is or the way we wish it were? No, the way it is right now. Oh, if play had a job title. Right. What would its role be? Oh, well, that's such a good question. Something about, well, I don't think we play enough, any of us, but when we do, I think it's an antidepressant.

[00:33:30] I think the job title would be antidepressant. Because, because even though we, I, and maybe that's a judgment that I have that I don't think as a society we play enough. Maybe some of us play too much. Who knows? But I think, I think play is, it helps us let off steam. It helps us, you know, be, be more cheerful about our lives. You know, I, that's very interesting.

[00:33:56] I think that because my job and the business that I currently have, Laugh, Play, Thrive, I specifically work with entrepreneurs and corporate, corporate American large companies,

[00:34:17] helping them, you know, solve people problems, solve, convert, selling, customer service, creativity problems in their business through leveraging the power of laughter and play, especially in applied improv.

[00:34:41] I think that, so my mind's going all over and over and I'm, I'm sorry if this is like going, my words sound like tennis, you know, a tennis game instead of like really logical straight lines. I'm sorry about that.

[00:35:04] So let me go back and, and I think one, one thing that I find in working with business owners and talking about play and humor is one block is that humor or laughter or play, it's

[00:35:31] not appropriate in work or it's not very appropriate. I think that you just hit on something is that some people don't know, either they don't know

[00:35:51] how to play or they don't know the appropriate times to play or they don't know, you know, combine the two, they don't know how to play appropriately at certain times.

[00:36:08] So they have one game that, and they play it all the time when that game might not be appropriate at a certain amount of time, at a certain time, but play is still appropriate.

[00:36:31] And so I think there's this, this yo-yo effect that people, that play has and people just really, we need to learn how to play the play game. Boy, that's a brilliant statement, Malcolm. I love that.

[00:36:57] You know, I'm reminded, like, I think we've, we're not learning how to play. Right. We're not teaching our kids how to play. Like when I was a kid, I was kicked out of the house on a summer morning and told, come back for lunch, but don't come back before lunch. And so what do you do? You go play. I mean, I played in the neighborhood, like all the neighborhood kids played together. We played hide and seek. We went to the bog and caught frogs. We, we rode our bicycle all over the place.

[00:37:24] Like we, we, we were playing all the time. Then we went home and had lunch and then we were kicked out of the house again and we had to come back for dinner. Like, it was like, we had to learn how to play and it was always good to be playing. And I look at kind of the, the generation that we're, we've been raising now. And these kids are in piano lessons and guitar lessons and then soccer practice and t-ball and, and choir.

[00:37:50] And like, there's 10 activities each kid has to do every week. There's no time for outdoor play, unstructured play. Like there's no appropriate time to play. It's been, it's been siphoned out of the world. And, and, you know, I've also noticed that the rate of depression and anxiety among young people is sky high. And I don't think that's an accident, you know, like I think that having had that opportunity

[00:38:17] to run around and play and, and invent games and kick a ball around and all those things, that's, that's anti-anxiety medication right there. It's the play is, is the secret, I think, to having a really balanced life. It may not always be happy, but at least you, you can find your way through these things with play. And I think you've hit something in the workplace. Like if, if, if you had, didn't learn that you could, you know, how to play almost whenever

[00:38:46] you wanted to, then we, maybe you don't know when it's the right time to play and when isn't. Right, right, right. And so laughter, so a lot of, a lot of leaders, they, when they think of laughter too, they equate laughter with humor, i.e. comedy, jokes, you know, something to laugh at, you know,

[00:39:13] they need a stimulus in order to laugh. Right. Whereas laughter, the type of laughter that I'm talking about is the type of laughter that we experienced when we started this podcast is that natural laughter that comes from these playful moments. Right.

[00:39:38] And so then we get back to the point where, where you said earlier in the podcast that there are moments in your work when you're with a client where it's inappropriate to laugh, where you think it's inappropriate. And it just, it's food for thought.

[00:40:08] It's food for thought. I mean, I'm not saying that it's always appropriate because obviously it's not. I don't want anyone out there to think that's what I'm saying. But it's just food for thought because it's almost always appropriate to play in some way, some

[00:40:31] sort of play, even a word play, or even a very simple word play, malappropriate, malappropriate. I know where you're, I know where you're going with that one. Can I put a caveat on that maybe? Yes, please. What occurs to me is that in the workplace particularly, sometimes I don't think people feel safe to play.

[00:41:00] The playfulness is judged and that, you know, people worry about their jobs. If they're too playful and they have a, you know, a severe manager who isn't creating safety in the workplace, then it's not safe to play. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that. I think you are absolutely correct.

[00:41:25] I think like when we even the job, you can say the same thing about the American culture. And I'm not sure about the Canadian culture. I could just talk about the American culture. It's very, it's all very regimented. There's a regimentation here and the job.

[00:41:52] And yeah, you have to feel psychologically safe in order to play, which is very interesting because playing itself and laughing creates psychological safety. So you have to feel like you are. You have to feel like you are. So you have to feel like you are. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[00:42:20] Sort of psychologically safe. You need some safety in order to play. But playing releases laughter, which then brings more psychological safety. Very interesting. Yeah. That's, yeah. Good question. Thank you for asking that and bringing that up. That's a great answer. Thank you.

[00:42:51] So what does lighten up mean to you? Okay, the first thing that came into my mind is, is that okay? Don't take yourself so seriously. Mm-hmm. I know there have been many times in my life where I've taken myself very seriously. And lighten up is a reminder to just breathe. Just, you know, play. Just breathe. I love that. Just breathe.

[00:43:21] Lighten up. Just breathe. Yeah. Right. Okay. Sometimes when we say lighten up to someone else, and it's almost taken as an insult. Actually, here's a question. Why do you think that happens? So there are some people we could say, lighten up. You know, lighten up. Just breathe.

[00:43:51] You know. But they take that as an insult. Like, lighten up. What do you mean, lighten up? I'll show you lighten up, buddy. Why do you think that happens? What's behind that? Mm-hmm. Well, if I can just imagine me having that reaction, what would have to be true if I were to react that way?

[00:44:17] Probably I would have to be in a lot of pain and feeling unsupported and needing to circle my wagons, feeling so defensive and unsupported maybe that a comment like that would demonstrate to me that person is judging me a little bit. Maybe. Like, if that were true for me. And I typically don't.

[00:44:45] Like, I'm the one telling myself to lighten up most of the time. Like, I'm my first person to say, oh, for crying out loud, Susie, lighten up. You know, you're taking this too seriously. Just breathe. But if I were to have that reaction, I think that's probably what would go through my mind. So I don't know if I can extrapolate for other people, but they're probably in pain and feeling unsupported, I would have to guess. I don't know. What do you think? That's a really good question.

[00:45:14] I think, well, in the second episode, The Humor Tree, when I talk about humor, I also talk about the fact that it's very much play. So humor as in play is very much something that we, that two, both parties involved need

[00:45:42] to be, they need to be at the right place, if that makes sense. And my, my, the words that I love, but they need emotionally, they need to be feeling the same level of openness, let's say.

[00:46:07] So it's a conversation, like play itself is a conversation that we are having. It's a tennis match that we are having. So we both need to be at a place where we can play tennis. Because if I serve the ball and you're not feeling it, well, then yeah, that's when you're going to get upset.

[00:46:37] And you're going to take offense if I say, oh, lighten up, Susie, you know, something like that. So I, I think that, I do think it's very much, it takes, it takes being able to read the room. And I, I see this as a comic because that's what we always said. Oh, read the room, read the room, you know.

[00:47:06] But it takes that ability to, I guess, read the situation. Like even if you're just talking to people, like read the situation. Ken, what are, what are your, what is your body language telling me right now?

[00:47:28] What is your tone and your choice of words telling me right now about how you're feeling? And then I can go from there. And then, you know, if I try and, and lob the tennis ball and you're not feeling it and I make a mistake, then I think if I approach it that way, then it's much easier for me to

[00:47:58] say, oh, I'm sorry, Susan. I really didn't mean that as a joke. Let's, I, I understand that your situation is hard right now. And, you know, I'm sure as your friend to listen. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And again, that's reciprocity, isn't it? That's right. It's that energy exchange. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:26] So as we wind down, because we've been talking for a little while now, and it's a great conversation when you keep, keep talking, but alas, we can't. Can't go in forever. And the show notes, we have your books and how to contact you and everything.

[00:48:50] But I wanted to give you an opportunity to verbalize how someone could contact you if they are an aspiring writer and they, they're looking for editing work.

[00:49:04] Well, I mean, the best way is to just email me at Susan at Crossman Communications with an S dot com and say, can we start a conversation about my book? That's often how this starts. And I'm here. This is what I do. But books are my jam. I just love books. I love supporting people. I love reading.

[00:49:33] I've got the best job in the world. I get, I get paid to read books, which is a dream come true. Another dream come true for me is that my whole life is about language and reading. And so I'd be more than happy if someone is working on a book and they think they might need an editor at some point. Then let's, let's chat and see what that would look like for you. Okay. All right. Sounds great.

[00:50:00] Well, Susan, what's one thing that you would like our listeners to remember after this episode? Never give up on yourself. We're all a work in progress. We all have room for improvement. And I think laughter is a pretty super important ingredient in all of that.

[00:50:25] And so if, if, if we can each find ways to play more and use that as an ingredient in our own evolution, then I think we're pretty good at making the world a better place through that. So don't give up on it. Just keep, keep plugging away and, and play, play your way. Play your way. No, don't plug your way. Play your way to your future. Just one step in front of the other. I love that. I love that. Great.

[00:50:56] Susan, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for being here on the Lighten Up Project. Really appreciate it. And for all of you, thank you all for showing up and listening to our conversation. Now, at the end, I told you we would go with the two truths and a lie,

[00:51:25] and we're going to reveal which one was true and which was a lie. Okay. So here again, here's what Susan said. She said she's earned her private pilot's license when she was 23 years old. She's a mother and stepmother of five children. That and is important.

[00:51:51] And she also breeds chocolate Labrador puppies as a hobby. So, Susan, which one is false? The one about the chocolate Labrador puppies. I love dogs, and I don't have time to raise puppies. But I love them. And if I were raising any kind of puppy, it might well be.

[00:52:20] We used to have a chocolate Lab, and we loved him. But yeah, that would be the one I made up. Right. Well, Susan, thank you so much for being on our show. And everyone else, please come back next week when we have yet another stimulating conversation with another guest. Until then, remember, every smile can open a door.

[00:52:50] Every laugh can open a heart. And every step can be a victory. I will talk to you all later. Take care. You've been listening to The Lighten Up Project with Malcolm Grissom. Stressed out, stuck, or leaving on autopilot?

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