How to Align Your Business With Your Life — Pamela Bruner

Welcome to the Limitless Women podcast. Our mission is to

help women business owners like you grow profitable businesses

and actualize your opportunities to serve and give to yourself

and others. Here's your host, the founder of Limitless Women,

Laura Gisborne.

Welcome back to the Limitless Women podcast. So

glad that you're here with us today, and I'm really excited to

introduce you to a new friend who's really been an old friend,

but we've reconnected, so it feels like a new friend, Pamela

Bruner, and Pamela and I met years ago. We couldn't really, I

couldn't really figure out exactly where, but we were

dancing with each other, and then we had this great reconnect

on LinkedIn recently, and got on a call and just realized that we

had so much synchronicity and so many mutual values that we share

around serving women and around impact and around philanthropy

and giving back. And she has just a beautiful story about how

she built her own business. And you know, I just was excited to

bring her to you today so that we can all learn from her

brilliance. So, welcome, Pamela. Thank you so much. I'm so

delighted to be here, Laura. Thank you, sweetie. I so

appreciate you. All right, so we'll start with philanthropy

because that's what brings us together first, right? And so

when we were talking the other day, you said you have a great

story about meeting, maybe meeting Cynthia Kersey, or there

was. Let me not tell you what the story is. It's your story to

tell. Cynthia Kersey is the founder of the Unstoppable

Foundation, and Unstoppable has been a cause that's been near

and dear to our limitless women community's hearts for many,

many years. So tell us how that started for you, and that'll be

a great way for us to kick off.

Well, I met Cynthia well over a decade ago,

and I approached meeting her as sort of the business

opportunity. You know, I was told by my coach at the time,

"Well, you need to go to the Unstoppable Gala. Like, okay, I

am a good client. I will go to the Unstoppable Gala. But what

happened is, I flew to Los Angeles, and the first thing I

did when I got in my hotel room, and I'm I'm going to cry through

this story. I took my Kindle out, and I put it on my bedside,

and all of a sudden they went, "Oh my God, what if I couldn't

read? And I went to the gala with that, and I listened to

Cynthia, and this was well over decade, probably 15 years ago.

So

yeah, yeah, it's been a long time since we're

doing a long time ago. The things, yeah,

right, and I saw her present about Unstoppable

and what they did for the children and the young girls in

Africa. And and at that time, and their model has changed, but

at the time it was $25,000 to sponsor a village. Right. I did

not have the business at that time to write a check like that.

Right. Right.

But I went up to her and I was sobbing, like ugly

sobbing. I was sobbing, and I said, "I want to sponsor a

village. And and being the gracious and wonderful person

that she is, she said, "Of course, and we'll talk.

Yeah.

So I think it was the next year that I had my

first live event. You know, 150 people in the room, and I asked

Cynthia to come speak, which she did. And you know, I was going

to give a matching donation. I was hoping that we'd get our

village. Well, we raised $50,000 that year. Wow! Congratulations!

And yeah, I was so happy for for the impact that we'd make. And

so, year after year, I kept inviting Cynthia back, and it's

just it just I remember the days she called me and she said the

entire region of Kipsingal is now done and and that was you

know there were a number of villages there that I and and my

extended community had support and it was just like like so

rewarding so I almost feel like I had to grow the business and

get the audience and get the people in order to honor this

this real dream that I had of being being the helpful person I

wanted to be.

Yeah, well, and it's interesting because it

starts with the emotion, right? The the piece around picking up

your Kindle and thinking, "What if I couldn't read? Which leads

to how many children don't have access to education, and how the

simple, how that one pillar of Unstoppable's model of the

United Nations model, how that one pillar changes so much,

right? And it's just such a fascinating thing, and it's

beautiful that that you decided to make that a part of your

business plan and really incorporate that into your

model, right? Because it's one thing to say, okay, and P.S.

Here's this piece, but to actually have that purpose call

you forward, I have a feeling that's probably how. You know,

energetically, your room is filling up. It's filling up with

great, great impact in the world, and great service, and

great energy. So, what do you know today that you didn't know

then? Like you started your business, and I told you before

we started recording, I was doing a little bit of homework

and reading about you starting at you know $375 a month, and

then growing a million dollar business and being really

successful. What what's the thing that you were like? Wow,

this is what I thought it was, but it was actually something

else. Tell me what you know, kind of what you're aware of

when you look back at your early days as an entrepreneur. Well,

one of the things that I've learned now is that the business

that you build and the business that you want to build can

change over time. So I really wanted, I wanted sort of the

family of a team, and I wanted to have a team, and I wanted to

serve a lot of people in a big way. And I did that for a number

of years. Right. You know, I grew the coaching business. I

added a Facebook ad agency.

Then I was like, no, no to the ad agency, but

still to the coaching, yeah, and and I even weathered the

pandemic, which a lot of people, you know, did not do. And then a

couple of years ago, I said, you know, not sure I want the team

so much anymore. I want to serve a slightly different crowd at a

slightly in a slightly different way, and use the skill sets that

I've acquired over the last 20 years, not necessarily the skill

sets that I started with, and and so a lot of people that I

help actually are in that position now, and and it's all

okay. Like your business does not have to look a certain way.

More revenue is not always the answer.

Amen,

and and. and now you know I can say what is the

best way for me to serve not only my life and my lifestyle,

but the lifestyle and the needs of my clients and of my

community and of the world. And it's a different answer now than

it was then, and that's okay. That's not that's not a detour

or a wrong turn or a failure or anything-it is just a life

choice.

So good, so good. And you know, and I feel

like in my own experience of nine different companies and six

exits, and people are always like, "How do you? People hear

that and they think it was all happening at once. So I'm like,

"No, I'm really old. I just look really young. Like I'm really

old, right? Like I'm just going to be. I've been on for longer

than most of my clients have been alive. I think that it's

fascinating how we do the best we can with what we know in the

moment, right, Pamela? Like this is where I am today. This is

what I know today. I really pray to be shown how may it be of the

greatest service today. And you know, God willing, if I'm still

doing this 10 years from now, there could be an entirely

different version. I know the version of myself as I am going

to turn 60 tomorrow. The version of myself today very different

than the version of myself at 40 or the version of myself at 20.

Right, so it's you know 23 is when I married into a family

business. So I think you know it's it's having grace for that,

but it's also remembering not only are we all one of a kind,

but we're also in different seasons, you know. And I think

that that's the piece that I'm hearing from you is like giving

yourself permission to say, "Okay, I tried that on, and then

I did it, and I did it well, and now it doesn't fit the season of

life that you're in right now. Right. So, so tell me a little

bit about who you love to work with today, because we had a

really good conversation before this, and I was like, I had this

visual in my brain of like a a necklace all full of knots. But

go ahead and tell me that I still have that picture in my

head. That you tell you tell your your words of who you love

to work with today.

Well, I you know I usually usually think of the

Gordian knot or the something like that, but I like a necklace

and knots. That's so much more glamorous. This idea of

unraveling thorny problems, like picking at them until we figure

out what is actually the constraint, what is actually the

problem. Most of the time, when people come to me with a

problem, when we when you say, you know, who do you love to

love to serve? I love to serve people who have enough

complexity in their business and have created enough success that

there are things bolted on and things that shouldn't be there,

but they're not sure what shouldn't be there. They just

know that things things have dragged to them and they're not

able to achieve their goals. Sometimes, honestly, they they

their personal goals have changed, but they've forgotten

to change the business along with it. Kind of what I was

talking about for myself, and so, and so I like picking apart.

You know, what's the business that you actually want to build?

Are you, you know, is with the old saying? Is your ladder

actually leaning against the right wall as you're growing it?

Do you want to scale something that's got a ton of revenue,

which is a perfectly appropriate goal. But do do you want to run

a smaller business where you're working with an ideal number of

clients, or do you want to run a lifestyle business where you

only work part time and you know and optimizing your business for

that thing? Because almost always, as we build and when

once. You get past the the 250k, 500k, 750k mark. You're you're

bolting things on, and almost always you're adding unnecessary

complexity. Yeah.

And then what if that? What if you're? And this

is really the work that we've been doing with emerging

leaders, and a lot of times with legacy leaders, we're revisiting

this. Is how solid is the foundation, right? Like that

whole you're bolting things on, but it's you know it's the old

the story from the Bible. You built your house on the sand, or

you built the house on the rock. You don't really know that

you've got foundation problems until the wall starts cracking,

right? So you keep building, and then realizing, oops, now we

have to go back down, right? So it sounds like you have an

awareness of seeing things that are in people's blind spots.

Yes, and even if you built, even if you built it

perfectly, and you continue to build it perfectly, the world

and the market changes so fast. So you can be doing everything

right and have built on the rock, as you say. And

then there's a then there's a little tremor, and

then there's COVID, right? I mean, like

hello, there's there's stuff happening. Life is lifeing, and

it's and it's it's a conversation I have often with

my mature girlfriends when I remind the younger ladies that

you know we had our first really successful business before the

internet, right? Amazing. It's life by the internet. There was

no social media because we didn't have computers. We

actually did have like a PC that we typed DOS into that we used

for bookkeeping and accounting. Right? Like I'm just there were

no cell phones. Like there was life before the this time. And

it's an interesting thing how how much things have changed,

and yet how much things have stayed the same, which leads me

to another question that I wanted to address to you. That

I'd asked you ahead of time: Is it okay if we talk about this?

Which is, I feel like one of the things that you're really

amazing at is keeping relationships going in a really

authentic, congruent way, and it's something that you teach

about, and it feels so resonant for our community because I feel

like again since you since you are the pro with the ads agency

you're actually the best person to talk about the power of

organic testing right like finding out what works before

you start pouring money at it you know is really my

recommendation is like what about that whole wealth of

connections that people already have that they just forget

about, like what's what's real, real life, real time right now,

Pamela. That a woman can listening to this say, like,

"Oh, there's a tactic. There's something I could try on, and

see how it works in my own business.

Can I start with a really vulnerable story?

Please start with all the stories you want.

You're a good podcast guest if you've got stories. Let it go.

Let it

start because. you know one of the things that

I used to teach is something called the story that runs your

life, and it's either I'm I'm not good enough in some way, I'm

not safe, or I'm not lovable. And my primary story was I'm not

lovable. So building relationships, you know, I

always it it was as so many powerful things are. It was both

a blessing and a curse because I always felt like it was really

important to be of value because that was going to make me

accepted. And it's actually it's actually a great way to start a

relationship is to is to offer value and to be a value to

people and that kind of thing, but what I had to change, I

didn't change the front end of that. I changed the back end of

that and why I was doing it and who I wanted to be in that

relationship. And you know, 25 years ago, literally, I could

not. I could. I would walk into a networking event and I would

leave in 15 minutes and go sit in my car and cry because I was

so uncomfortable. That's where I started, and I used all my

mindset tools to help me get to the place where meeting people

is now a joy. And so now I will return to your your question,

which is it's important context. It's important context because

how many people are feeling that way first, yeah. They're like,

"Oh, it's easy for you, Pamela. I'm like, "No, no, it really

wasn't. And and you know, now we have these these amazing tools

with AI and web builders and and funnel builders and all of this

kind of stuff. And it used to be that nobody would build a

website until they had made you know 1000s and 1000s and 1000s

of dollars because that's what it costs to have a website

built, and now you have to do it at a click of a button, and and

I think that one of the problems with that is it makes people

focus on the tools rather than the the content or the meaning

or something like that. Like we say, how do I reach out

organically on social? How would you reach out if you encountered

somebody on the street and you know started talking to a

neighbor? You know,

it's

and so I love what you said about you know

test. What's the smallest test that you can run where you can

get a. Immediate feedback, and it's usually, you know, talking

to somebody at the grocery store or picking picking up your phone

and calling somebody that you haven't talked to in six months,

and and you can get feedback that's so much faster even than

you can do with the extraordinary tools and building

a funnel and that kind of thing,

yeah,

because you get the feeling and you get the

emotion behind it, and all business, for all that we we

love our numbers and we love our systems, business runs on

emotion, and so we've got to put that connection in there because

that's where that's where not only will the business and the

marketing, the sales all build on that emotion, but honestly,

the joy that you have in your business will build on the

emotion.

Absolutely, and it's interesting because I was

teaching. We host a flow retreat each year, right? Which is

financial literacy for women. So it's cash flow, it's marketing

flow, it's sales systems, it's finance. Like what to track and

how, right? Just how to have money be the easy part of your

business starts a lot with just getting away from everything and

having a place to settle down where you're safe and actually

be in the conversation. And I think one of the things that

came up in the sales with ease conversation this year, and I've

been teaching this since I think we crafted that in 2012, so 14

years. But I just for years have been saying, I wish I had a

magic wand, Pamela. I wish I had a way to just make all of this

be so easy for you, and take everything I've learned and just

give it all to you. Like if I just could do that, and then I

just had this download, I had this moment, and you'd

appreciate this given the context of what you just shared.

I said, you know what it is, my loves? It is emotion. If there's

one magic wand that lives, especially in sales

conversations, but what about like what it is to be human in

the time of great change in AI? AI does so many cool things, and

this technology has been such a blessing. I feel like it's a a

great catalyst from God, and we still have something really

special, and it is this place of emotion. It's this place of

connection, and when we remember that, and we allow ourselves to

be there, and again, there's a lot of layers of safety to

getting ourselves to the place where we can even allow

ourselves to be safe. But if we've got there through the, I

think you talk about your your business adventure as like the

greatest getting a master's in personal development or

something. I'm putting words in your mouth and something along

those lines, right? Like the the journey, it's just so so

powerful. The way it gets easier is by doing right, and I think

that that's another piece. I feel like there's this something

about having the courage to take the actions when we don't feel

that we're ready that help us build new muscles, you know. And

I feel like you've got so much mastery around marketing and

sales. I love that I want to know the tactics. You bring me

right back to the emotion, and even the tactic of reaching out.

You know, I I encourage our ladies, especially if they're if

they're new in business. I encourage them to choose, you

know, five or 10 people a day to just connect. Whatever your

methodology is, right? For me, I'm just when after I do my

prayer time, after I do my meditation, before I get up and

start hitting the road, I just reach out to like 10

girlfriends, and you know, and it's interesting, and the phone

calls that result from that are fantastic. You know, it's not an

agenda; it's just a way of keeping our connection alive.

You know, as friends, it's just really so sweet. So, yeah,

thanks.

I want to build on that because there would have

been a time when I heard what you just said.

Yeah,

and I was like, "That's fine for her, but I

don't even have 10 girlfriends that I can reach out to, and so

so I want to answer that version of me that's still listening

from that place,

which is

that you don't even have to start with 10; you

can start with one. And the last great business connection I made

was like somebody who takes yoga with a friend of mine and

thought that maybe we ought to meet for lunch and oh gosh the

idea so

it was a divine date

yeah so

it you know it doesn't it doesn't you if you if

you are fortunate enough to have 100 people in your rolodex and

you want to do 10 a day, great. And if you don't start with two

and ask them who they know, and be willing to sometimes not hear

from them, it's all okay. Like start where you are. Yeah. Well,

and it's that's a good reminder too because I know when I first

started being asked to speak and lead, and the invitations would

come with synchronicity, right? Because I'm listening. Like,

what's the pattern? My brain kind of goes that way. So it was

around women. It was always global. It wasn't where you come

down to Phoenix. I lived in Sedona. I lived in Cornville

actually at the time, which is outside of Sedona. It was where

you come to China. Will you come to India? Who are these? What

are you? Who? What? What's a about session? It was so bizarre

to me, and the work was around philanthropy, and I didn't

identify that way, right? I just didn't seem like who am I? I'm

not a philanthropist. I'm just a person who's trying to do what I

could do, right? And what I'll say to you is very interesting:

is that my girlfriend, one of my girlfriend conversations I had

yesterday, which was with a girlfriend that I had not talked

to for several years, and you had things to catch up on, like

the death of her father and the death of her her puppy that she

had for 15 years. You had like life to catch up on, and one of

the things that she said is that she said I came to mind for her

because she saw something online around philanthropy. She said I

saw the word philanthropy, and your picture popped into my

brain, and I was like, 'Wow, that's so cool! Right? So often

it's like not even how we see ourselves, but how other people

see us. I think that the actions of continuing to show up with

great service, continuing to show up with what you know

you're here to do, and then praying to be shown how has been

my journey, right? Like I was like, Lord, I don't even know

what this is, and I was a man in a woman's body. So can see me

today, all cute, and that's you know dolled up, and this is this

is a thing. I put on my makeup for you today, but I got to tell

you, I was so masculine in my young years, you know, and of

course there was a cost to that too. But I didn't, I wasn't a

girlfriend. I didn't have a bunch of girlfriends, and now I

have 1000s of amazing friends, which I'm so grateful for. But

let's get back to you. Tell me about this piece that that we

can kind of tie together with one of your superpowers. Is and

I was just reading your posts on LinkedIn. If you don't follow

Pamela on LinkedIn, go because she writes great content. Just

really helpful thought pieces, right? You're very thoughtful in

the way that you write. And one of the things you wrote that

really caught me was the story of somebody who's really great

at what they do, and then why is why doesn't he not get into

business? Other people getting the business. There's something

that you know, Pamela, that you specialize in. I would say

around helping a business owner become a category of one. That's

you know what I would call that. You might use different language

about that, but there's something about knowing your

positioning in the marketplace that I'd love to know more about

how you help people have that clarity.

I'm gonna I'm gonna start off with an image of

a sport that I don't play,

but I know the sport is, and we'll have to know

if I know what it

is. I've heard people say that often when

they're like teaching people to putt on a golf course. Okay,

definitely

the most sport. I do not play, but I I

understand what golf is because my husband's obsessed. Yes,

people people they're putting like I want to

get it close to the hole,

okay.

Instead of I actually want to sink it in the

hole, and I think that this question you've asked me

actually fits into that metaphor, because people don't

always think I want to be a category of one or I want to be

the only go to for my clients. They think I want to be one of

the best, or I am a person that offers this service. I can't

tell you how many people I have talked to. I do work with a

service-based entrepreneurs, mostly transformational

entrepreneurs. So it's it's coaches and consultants and

agency owners and and other services like that. But the

thing is, they'll they'll say I offer X Y Z services, and it's

like no, that that makes you a commodity. You know, when you

specify further, you you move up a little bit and you become

premium, and that's good. But premium means usually you're

evaluated as one of five to seven companies that they might

choose. Why would you do that? What's it going to take to move

you into category one? And some of that is is the messaging and

the positioning and all the strategic things we do to to

niche in a certain way. But another part of it is believing

that you can be believing in the only person to do this for a

particular group, or in a particular area, or deliver a

particular transformation, and so when we find that that that

juxtaposition of the perfect message and the perfect

positioning and the perfect approach and the perfect also

delivery method, because categories of one do not deliver

low end, you know, poorly delivered services. You know,

everything is is top notch. Then everything changes. Then you are

the category of one.

Interesting. Yeah, and I think about how much

because there was another post. So I was reading all your posts

today. I was like, not. I shouldn't apologize for that.

But I'm like, then you posted this, and then you posted that.

Like you get your whole thing, but there was something else

about like coaches offering $25,000 of the service and then

charging 5000. You know what I mean? Like what's happening for

that person and their identity? Are they just what's where are

they missing? Like are they not aware of the results or the

outcomes that they're. Clients are getting. What's causing

somebody just so undercharged like that? Well, there are two

things. One is that the market for coaching is changing

drastically right now, and it is more difficult to be in

transformational services. It just is right now. It's putting

more pressure on the marketing and the sales and the messaging

and and all of that. So so I don't want to say that all of

this can be solved with just a couple of things because we are

in a we are in a different more difficult

place in the world.

Right.

That that being said, they're they're pricing

that way partly because the language that they're using

doesn't communicate the value, and usually the reason it

doesn't communicate the value is they're talking too much about

the process or

the matter or the system, yeah, rather than

talking about the

outcome.

Yeah,

and people love their. I love my process. I'm,

but we work really hard to build this framework. Yes, and and I

must tell you all about the framework and getting fly into

the fact that the framework is the right one. And you know

there is something in marketing, as you also call it, unique

mechanism. And yes, we want to talk about that, right? But too

many transformational entrepreneurs lead with their

method, and that's that is what is holding them back because

people will people won't see the outcome; they'll see the method,

and they'll believe that the method is worth 5000, not

25,000. Yeah, yeah.

Well, there's something you said in in in one

of these posts. I was reading today about how I have an

elephant brain, so I'm going to be like quoting to you

everything you ever read, everything that you ever wrote.

We only have so much time. I'm going to, but I love this.

There's all good stuff that I want to bring forward because I

think it really matters. Is there something that that you

shared, Pamela, and I want you to have your words about it, not

me to project this on you. I don't misquote you, but there

was something that you shared about in every premium buyer's

decision process. There's one question to be answered, right?

And it's it's it's the like the the version of like what's

what's in it for me is not what's happening. It's like

what's the thing that's going to be so different as a result of

this? Help me with that. Help me unpack that because I feel like

the way you wrote it and the way you explained it, I was like,

oh, that's actually what's happening when our prospects are

in the conversation with themselves about am I ready to

do this? Is this the right partnership? What is it that

they're trying to determine?

This is actually something that I was that I was

working on today when I was writing and posting and getting

something ready for client. So is this idea that so so this is

a person who, let's just say, helps deliver leadership

excellence in a company. Yep. And everyone agrees that

leadership excellence is a good idea, but let's develop our

leaders could be on a C-suite's to-do list for years. Oh,

shortcut. There's nothing. There's nothing particularly

urgent in there. There's nothing compelling in there. What's the

actual business problem that gets somebody to you know pound

their fist on the table and say, "Who are we calling today to

solve this problem? And so it is a problem in the moment. It is

not. It's not the the general category that you solve-it's not

even that this is a good idea, but it is what is the problem in

the moment. And most people-they're not going there

because it either it feels too specific or they don't know if

it's accurate. You know, some people even put numbers on their

LinkedIn, which I mean, I love you know. I helped people go

from X Y Z numbers to A B C numbers. That's wonderful to

say, but if you don't talk about what the problem was before and

the the the outcome was after, the numbers are great, but they

don't really tell me the story. So, all of those things, and am

am I saying in way too many words that you need to get much

more specific about me? I think you're saying

exactly what you want to say. You're doing great.

I'm hoping I can get these questions out because I have so

many of them. But yeah, it really

is. Your buyers are almost certainly not asking

the questions that you are trying to answer.

Well, and there, you. This is the whole

conversation too that I had with somebody earlier today about

this act of generosity of meeting people where they are,

and then partnering with them to go where they want to go. Right,

but if you are not meeting them where they are, it doesn't

matter what you want to take them through or where you want

to go with them, right? I mean, we were. This started as a a

mission vision conversation we were having, and I was saying

that you know the mission statement at Limitless Women is

to heal the poverty consciousness of women business

leaders so that they can join together in community and heal

actual poverty. Right? Yes. To this day, my love, no one has

ever called up and said, "Hey, I'd like to have my poverty."

Consciousness healed. It just hasn't happened. It hasn't been

on anybody's radar. It's not what they're looking for, right?

But we can have that for ourselves, right? This is really

for us to remember the sacred nature of the healing process

that leads to an actual healing of poverty. And then in the

vision statement, we can go into a place where businesses are

seen as a force for good, and that all beings are seen as

worthy and valuable, and resources are reallocated. We

can go into that a little more explanation. I think the piece

here is that the symptom that your prospect is aware of

requires attentive listening. It requires being fully present, it

requires capacity to hold without judgment. I mean,

there's a lot of things that I feel like are in the in the very

energetic realm of your work that you do when I'm getting to

be with you, like unconsciously, or maybe you're not unconscious.

Maybe you're like in there analyzing everything I'm saying

and figuring it all out. I don't know, but but you make it feel

so seamless, you know. You have a superpower around just really

leaning in and asking better questions to help identify

what's really going on for somebody, you know. And I think

that that's a process that is there's probably a combination

of practice and your own individual. It's probably a

nature and nurture thing that's going on, you know, to get you

there, very possibly. To me, ironically, as an expert, I

mean, I know I'm an expert in a lot of things, but I don't mind

looking

like like I have beginner's mind. I won't say

looking ignorant, but I will say looking like I have a beginner's

mind because it's in it's in the asking questions that we create

understanding, and from the understanding, we can then build

a bridge. And so, the problem, and this harkens back to what we

said a moment ago about trying to sell your system, your

method, or something like that, is when you come in with "I know

what you need, and what you need is this, and you sound at best

like a jerk, you know. You know. Wow, little

off-putting. Yeah, you are kind

of a know-it-all. Instead of

sorry, let me

let me ask questions. Let me use a little

bit of the Socratic method here, and and get all the details out

so that you feel heard, you feel understood, and then I can make,

um, I can make a really cogent argument for what you need.

So this brings me back to an earlier part of

our conversation. I'm hoping you have time because I'm having so

much fun. I have lots of time with you. Yeah, you're my last

call today. So here's what shows up a lot in our community: is

that women are struggling with who am I to do this? Am I ready?

Am I strong enough? So as a result of that, there's a lot of

posturing that happens because they're trying to look a certain

way until they actually can feel themselves rooted and grounded

in their positioning. Right. So we want to really help them get

clear about their positioning and their unique brilliance and

who they be in the world and what's theirs to do and what's

theirs to let go of, right? All of the systems piece that we we

work with. I'm curious about your willingness to show up

looking curious, not looking ignorant, so you can ask the

questions because I think that there's more to that. I want to

unpack that a little bit with you, Pamela, because if you're

trying to show up looking good, you know. I'll say often I've

like spent a lot of money hiring hiring a mentor and then being

too cool for school. Like, how smart was that? I actually spent

the money, asked them what to do, and then said, "Oh no, my

way is better. Like, well, now I spent money and and was wrong,

and then had to figure it out and be like, "Oh, that's what

they were talking about. You know what I mean? Like, hello.

So, not trying to look good, but instead really having what I

would see again is just this generous heart, you know, for

listening that you have, and for staying curious to meet people

where they are. Anything else you want to share about that?

Well, first, thank you for the

acknowledgement. That means a great deal. It's it's nice to be

seen in for something that I actually work hard at and

cultivate. Like that, I appreciate that. And one thing I

will say, you know, when you're saying who am I to and how do I

show up and I'm afraid to, when you show up in a place of

curiosity with the question, "How can I serve? I remember one

of my clients created a mantra years and years ago. If I could

remember his name, I would credit him. Yeah, he said, "I

take this into networking. He said, "I, I need nothing from

you. I want everything for you. Oh, how beautiful! He's like a

Buddha. Yes, and I take that into conversation. So you're

lovely. You're taking this this heart and this beginner's mind

and this. You know, I'm not afraid to say what I don't

understand or what I don't know and keep asking questions, and

then. Often, what'll happen is I'll ask a question that seems

very obvious to me, and someone will go, "Oh my gosh, that's a

good question. It's just, it's just me trying to uncover

things. So, don't don't be too cool for school, right? Don't be

kidding, right?

For sure, for sure. All right, so we've got

this piece around really understanding someone's value

proposition, and I think that the piece that I'm still I want

to talk a bit about a little bit about before we wrap up is what

are some of the things that you're aware of that are in

people's blind spots? You know, like just what are some of the

things that somebody could maybe ask themselves, and then of

course we're going to encourage them to reach out to you and to

follow your work and to lean in and feel into you know whether

there there's an opportunity for you to serve and partner with

them. But in the meantime, what are some of the things that that

you've seen in your experience that really live in people's

blind spots?

So the the the first one is that whatever is

the big no for you, like if you've got this big no right in

front of you and you're like, I'll do anything but that, and

I'm I'm doing this stuff over here and this stuff over here,

all of your money is right behind that no.

Oh my gosh! Do not tell me this. I don't want

to know. All

your money is right behind the no. So, so I do

want to know. I'm teasing, and and so what looks like some

people will say, "Well, this is just a boundary. Is it actually

a boundary, or is it a fear, or a limiting belief, or something

like that? So that's a blind spot. Often, especially as we

get into sort of the the more mature businesses or higher

levels of entrepreneurship, almost always the CEO and

founder is a bottleneck.

Yeah, not

necessarily in every way. I remember when I I

heard the phrase, you know, a $1 million CEO delegates what she

doesn't do well, a $10 million CEO delegates what she does do

well, and I'm like, "Ooh, I love that so much. So, you know, if

you're going to ask yourself questions, where's my biggest

no, and is that actually a boundary or is that a block?

Number two, where am I the bottleneck in my business, and I

need to get out of my own way? Number three, if I think

something is a strategic problem, am I sure, or might it

actually be a mindset problem? Okay, so let's get clear about

the difference. So, what's the difference between a strategic

problem and a mindset problem? So glad you asked. So, usually,

especially now when tactics and platforms and social and ads and

all of this have become very easy, very sort of push of a

button, most people who are successful at least briefly in

the industry, and you and I are OG, my friend, but most people

who are successful in the industry are selling some little

tactic, right? They're selling they're selling a hammer

because, my goodness, everything is a nail. Right,

lead somebody where they are. Yep.

And so, so the problem is when you go looking

for that tactic, and a lot of people call that the silver

bullet.

Then

you're often approaching something as though

there is a tactical or perhaps a strategic problem. Well, I just

need more leads. That means I need to find the best lead

generation system, and that's going to be ads on Facebook, ads

on LinkedIn, somebody to do X, Y, Z for me, whatever it is. And

maybe the problem is what you need to do is serve a higher

level of clientele that you're not willing to step into yet

because you don't believe that you belong there. Do you see how

that looks like a strategic problem, actually a mindset

problem?

Yeah, it's a it's a way of also like

creating. I'm thinking about one of my clients who's you know my

clients become friends, my friends become clients. It's a

beautiful gift in my life, especially in the season of life

because I'm really here for because I get to be here, right?

I think about how I'll have a really great conversation about

the tactics that got done by the team by the next thing, and then

I'll talk to this person like a week or two later, and all these

other things got done, but not those things, right? And it's

always so fascinating, right? Because what's the and there's a

resistance there specifically. Like those are the things that

we know that if we would just do X, Y, or Z, we now would have

like consistent cash flow and easy things. And so instead, all

of these busy things show up. Right. So I think you know I'm

just I'm not giving her name. I'm going to pick on her as one

person of many, myself included. But you know, it's a little bit

of human nature to distract ourselves. It's so interesting,

yeah.

And and you know, the the world with all its

bright shiny little technology toys has made it so easy to

distract ourselves now, has it not? So we jump in and we want

to use all these toys when we really need to do is possibly.

Some more deep thinking,

yeah, yeah, and a little more reconnecting. I

think you know it's one of the powers of having live events for

us, right? That women can disconnect, so they can really

reconnect to hear their inner voice and their inner knowing,

right? There's something that happens in that space and

connect not only with themselves but with each other in a way

that's just very, very different than on the fly. So, I'm always

astonished when I go inside, and all the wisdom is actually, you

know, it comes forth, and I'm like, why didn't I ask you

sooner? Well, this is, you know, this is really the what we know,

and it's it's in its infancy. So I'm grateful for any insights

you have, what you hear about this, but you know this is

really our our work that's been pulling me forward, which is

kind of where I told you that I went to Asheville to go to

Montreat and and talk with women about linear led life. Is this

idea of having God as our CEO, right? Whatever that power of

the divine is for you, as you understand God in a time of

great change. You know how do we embrace this beautiful catalytic

change on fire fast time, and also remember that we're not

alone and stay deep, you know, steep deep in it. So I will

leave us on that note to say any other thoughts you have that you

know about Divine business retreat or any other things that

are going on. I want women to know how they can connect with

you. And men, if we have men listening to this now or in the

future, but for the most part, limitless women. We're talking

to women. What anything else you want to wrap with us? I would. I

would certainly encourage people to reach out. I love connecting

with people, and LinkedIn is the best place to find me, Pamela

Brunner on LinkedIn, and and I want to. I love what you said

about God as the CEO because it's fine to play in the it's

fine to play in the the numbers world, in the

revenue world, in the ego world, and and how good you feel taking

care of people. And then there's source, and then there's there's

the center. And when you return and connect with that, takes

care of a lot of business problems. So thank you for that.

Okay, so so good. All right, my darling,

it's been fabulous to reconnect with you. I look forward to

seeing you in the flesh soon. We'll figure out when that is

and how that works. But just so much fun having your girlfriend

chat and getting caught up. And thank you for sharing your

wisdom and your brilliance, and you know, just and again,

shining some light on some things that I needed to hear

today that I maybe didn't want to hear, but that I needed to

hear. So I appreciate you. My pleasure. All right, Jelly. Good

to be with you. Thank you again.