Dr. Esther Graham on Faith-Led Leadership for Women

Welcome to the Limitless Women podcast. Our mission is to

help women business owners like you grow profitable businesses

and actualize your opportunities to serve and give to yourself

and others. Here's your host, the founder of Limitless Women,

Laura Gisborne.

Welcome back to the Limitless Women podcast. I'm

so thrilled and honored to have my dear friend, Dr. Esther

Graham, here today. Now, Dr. Esther Graham is a woman who has

so much to share, and she's going to probably start by

sharing. It's just Esther, one of her lines, and she's worked

really hard to be where she is, and she's done remarkable

things, and she has so much to share with us, and so much

wisdom on the spiritual level, on the physical level of what it

is to be a wife, a mother, a grand love, as she calls

herself, and what it is to be a business owner, and as a woman

who's a part of our Limitless Woman community, she's inspired

me by her generosity, by her spirit, by her service, and by

her her philanthropy. Really, I'll tell you the story about

that in a hot minute. But first, let me say welcome, welcome,

Esther.

Dr. Esther Graham: Oh, thank you so much, Laura. It's a privilege

and an honor to be here. So thank you for inviting me.

Thank you. It was really good to catch up with

you after not seeing each other for a while and having a chance

to talk. And just you know, wanted to present a few of my

favorite Esther isms, you know, today thinking about some of the

things that you've said over the years, as we've become friends

and our origin story, we have a mutual friend, Alicia Houston,

who introduced us. You came to a Limitless Women event that

started our courtship and our friendship, and it's just really

grown over the last few years. So, we just wrapped up a trip in

Africa together, and I was just really pleased to be there with

you and and get a chance to go deep and spend time with

Jonathan, your beautiful husband, and you guys are such a

role model for us as a couple and as a family. So, yeah,

thanks to that.

Dr. Esther Graham: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, thank you.

This one piece I hear in my head often, in fact,

I heard it today, is an Estherism, which is is if it's

God's will, it's God's will.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, if it's God's will, it's God's will.

So helpful, so helpful. So take us back to you

know bringing God in the house here about your childhood. You

know, tell me a little bit about this. I was thinking about it,

just speaking to another friend who was in Guyana, and she had

not been there for many years. I know you're getting ready to go

back and see family there again. You know, tell me a little bit

about the journey. Speaking of God and really honoring Him and

the process that He has, you know, the journey He's taking

you on in this lifetime.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah. So I was born in Guyana, South

America. I'm a PK, which means I'm a preacher's kid, right? And

so, so I was actually born in the parsonage, and so many

people don't know what a parsonage is now, but a

parsonage back in the day was when the church owned the home

that the pastor and his family lived in, and so we lived in the

church's parsonage, and that's where I was born on a Sunday

morning, while my father was in the pulpit preaching, the

parsonage is always right next door to the church because you

know if the all the pastor ever has to do is just walk across in

there, and so I was born in the home with you know I had my my

mother said the midwife and everybody was there, and when I

was born they ran into the church to tell my father that I

was born, and at the time they were singing "Count Your

Blessings. And so my mother said, my father came over and

prayed, you know, and and basically said she she will

always be a blessing. And so that's where that's where my

beginning starts. All my life, that's all you know. I've just

grown up in church. You know, interest in life. You know, from

from Guyana to the United States. My when my father, which

is really odd, when my parents came to the U.S. they actually

came as missionaries. Normally, it's the other way around.

Right, right, yeah. So

Dr. Esther Graham: from the U.S. go to the to third world

countries, right? But my father was asked by the church, the

denomination, to come up and begin to travel the U.S. So they

came up for a year, traveled the U.S. and then they came back to

get part of the family, part which included me because I'm

the youngest. The other half was already older. My brothers and

sisters are very much older than I am, and they were in the UK,

they were in Puerto Rico, they were in Canada, studying at

universities everywhere. And it was me and and the other

siblings at home, and we all came up to the U.S. And that's

really how we ended up here: is that they brought him over to

really help start, let's say, black churches in their.

Denomination in the United States and to pastor it, yeah.

So that's how we ended up here.

Very cool. And tell me what you thought you'd

want to be when you grew up.

Dr. Esther Graham: I knew I always wanted to be a teacher.

You did,

Dr. Esther Graham: right? Yeah. And I didn't realize. I mean, I

knew always that, but I never really understood why until

later in life, when I realized one day I woke up and said, "Oh

my gosh, I'm following in my mother's pathway. You know, my

husband is a pastor. My mother was an educator, had her own

private schools. You know, and yeah, and and she was an

entrepreneur and had not just schools, but she had other

businesses as well. And it's so funny, I you know, you know,

you're going through college. You're not thinking about

anything like that. And then one day, it's like I started on this

path. Now, you know, I became a pastor's wife, and all these

different things. I've got like, wait, I'm just following in my

mother's footsteps.

Well, and it sounds like there's so much love

there. So it's a it's a nice legacy, right? A nice legacy for

your mother to role model for you on the possibility that she

did, so that you could come here and do what you've done. Right,

do what you've done. Now, tell me, as a global citizen, because

you really are. Did you think that you would be a pastor's

wife? You know, I think about some of the journeys and the

adventures and living overseas, you know. There's more to this

story than like before and after, right? I mean, tell me a

little bit more about like you and John and that

Dr. Esther Graham: journey. No, I never thought I would be a

pastor's wife. As a matter

of fact,

Dr. Esther Graham: when when John told me that he was called

into the ministry as a pastor, Laura, honestly, listen. I

became very upset because I said I was a pastor's kid, and I did

not, I did not marry you for this. And I said you need to go

rethink this and have another conversation with God because

what I'm not going to do is be a pastor's wife. So I was not

happy about it. I just never thought that I would be in that

path, but then after I got over my shock and my anger and all of

these different things, it's like I knew, you know how you

just know. I knew it, and I was just fighting against it, and I

just had to just lean in and say, "This is what it is. I have

to support it. And then you know, I myself was called into

ministry, and so it's like, but you know, I debate it with God.

Honestly, it's like, you know, do we have to do this?

Right, right. Well, I think I think about when

I started being called to speak and lead, and I said, I'm not.

You have the wrong person. There's all these people who

would love this opportunity. Please give this to someone who

wants to use their voice because I'd like to stay home in my

little place in Cornville and just be a hermit and leave me

alone, right? So it's interesting when that when that

call comes and then how you choose to maybe resist, but then

it persists, right? So there's that piece, and then there's

more. There's more. So, so you guys fell in love. What about

Italy? Where did that come in?

Dr. Esther Graham: So we, so we fell in love in the UK, and

that's where we actually met. Was in in the UK. I was going

through a transition period in my life at the time, and and we

met, and we just really became good friends. Once we got

married, you know, we then moved to North Dakota, and then we

were in Italy for quite a while, and that's where that really

came in, and really that's where we really got involved in

ministry and teaching. I was already an educator, right?

Yeah, I was already an educator. I graduated from university, and

I was doing, let's say, a little of what I loved, and then you

know, once we got married and you know, children started to

come, I decided to be a stay-at-home mom, right? And and

I did that for a while, but I got a little bored, and I said,

you know, I just need to do something more. So I started

building up on my career in actually in teaching, and I have

a love for early childhood. When we were in Italy, I did the same

thing there. You know, I got very involved in the church

there. I started their children's ministry. You know,

and then I began working at the early childhood center on the

Air Force base that was there, and and that's when I just

really began to hone in on this is what I think I'm supposed to

be doing, you know, and and this is really my love. I then while

I was there, taught as an adjunct instructor at one of the

universities, and so I that's I just began to just slowly move

into what I call it's just really a passion that I had,

yeah,

yeah, yeah. And so you guys came back to the

United States. We're kind of fast forward and come back to

the United States, and then tell us a little bit about how you

ended up with your first school, which is now two schools. Tell

me, you know, I'm going to count the school in Africa might be

the third school. A lot of founding going in there, but

tell me about how that part of the journey happened.

Dr. Esther Graham: Well, when we we returned back to the U.S. I

was still working for the military at the time, right? And

I made a decision that no one thought I would make. I said I'm

going to resign out of the GS system because I said there's a

larger world out there for me, so I spoke to my husband and I

said, you know, I'm going to resign. I didn't have a job. I

didn't have anything else, you know. And we got, you know,

three young children, and um, and so when I did that, I said,

I want to try the civilian world, and I did. I began, you

know, I became a CEO, a CEO at one of the one of the

educational companies whose office is in North Carolina, but

they're in 12 states. And then I began to teach at the community

college, and then I designed their early childhood lab school

and all of their policies and procedures. And then I began,

you know, did some work for the Department of Education, sat on

the governor's council for early childhood and did all of these

things. And then one day, Laura, I said, "I need to do this for

myself because I have my own philosophy about education. And

so, and that's really how it began. I was actually working,

you know, for Department of Ed, and and I was seeing a lot of

going to a lot of early childhood centers, going to

different areas, doing a lot of leadership training and

development, helping them set up their programs, looking at

what's wrong, what is it, where's the gap, how do we need

to fix this, and everything, doing a lot of training for

them, and someone called me and said, "Hey, we're about to sell

our school, and we thought they said, 'Well, something told me,

and I don't believe in something, so I was like, 'Okay,

but I knew what they were, you know, yeah, I knew what they

were saying that we should call and ask you. So when they called

me, I said, 'I'm not sure. Let me think about it. Let me talk

to my husband. Let me pray about it.' Sure. So I did, and then I

got back with that. I said, "I'm really, I don't have a clear

answer. So right now, I'm going to say no because I just didn't

have clarity. I was already really busy with work. The

children are getting older, and so this was in October. In

December, they called me back again, and they said, "We

really, we really think that you should take this. And I said,

well, I'm not sure. And then they said, we will give it to

you.

And you said, excuse me. And

Dr. Esther Graham: that's exactly what I said. What?

Excuse me. They said this will be turnkey. You can just take

over our staff. You could take this over. You could. We did all

of that. And really, that's how at first. And I was like,

really. I went back and I said to my husband, I call him Babe.

I said, Babe, this is what. What do you think? And he said, Well,

let's pray about it some more. And we did. And I said, Okay,

we're going for it. And that's really how it started. And I

took it over. So by February, I had this whole early childhood

center. Still had a job, as you know, still working for the

state of Delaware in early childhood, still overseeing a

program that's got over 200 and almost 300 children across the

state, right? And managing a multi-million dollar budget, and

now I have this, and it's like, okay, yeah. And so, and then

within one year later, I resigned. You know, I left and

and went just fully into this full time. And you know,

sometimes it sounds like, oh, what's the easy walk? It wasn't

easy, but it was rewarding because I was working. I knew

what I was working towards.

Yeah, and you also had. I always think it's so

fun, and so it's kind of this this. Tell me about your journey

because when I hear often, you know, it's the like the saying

that my friend Tracy says: you can't see your own eyebrows;

you're in it, right? Like you're in your walk, you're doing your

thing, and we can look now and say, "Oh, that makes total

sense. But at the time, you're like, "Who are these people? Why

are they calling me? Right, and you're you're you're also

listening and and feeling into is this the right next step? And

then I so appreciate you know that you listen to your to your

inner voice. You go to prayer and you say, okay, show me,

Lord, is this is this the next step? I don't need to know the

how. Just show me the way, right? And then it does the way

it unfolds is always if it's meant to be. At least in my

experience, it's meant to be, you know, God's plan is always

bigger than my plan and and better, you know, that I that I

can see. So there's there's that place of walking in faith. It's

super cool.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, it's it's super cool because you know

at that time I thought, well, you know, Lord, you know, I'm

still working. My husband is at the time he was still in the

military, and we're just doing all of these different things,

and the the children are, you know, yeah. And I thought, where

is the money going to come for this? And of course, if it's

your will, it's your bill.

There it is,

Dr. Esther Graham: you know.

There it is. And so when

Dr. Esther Graham: it just came and said, okay, you could just

would you like

it? Yeah, yeah. And so then you already had all

this experience with the state, with early childhood, with a

large budget. With you know, I mean, it's so fascinating. This

is where I said to you, you know, earlier today we were

talking. It just these are the things that make me even more of

a believer when I look at the miracles and I say, you know, as

a mere mortal, I'm going to had a plan to line these things up

in my life, but when I look back and see how God lined things up,

so much better.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yes, so much. His plan is always better than

our plan, and we could spend a lot of time planning. Yes, but

sometimes it's a waste of time. And so, just do something else

and let Him, you know, be obedient and follow his plan.

Yeah. How did you? I'm curious about this

because I had a, I had and have a good friend. I started to say

I had a friend tell me once, which is where that is. And

she's still a friend. Friend Mayo, she has said to me, I was

talking about praying to lead a led life and the praying for

guidance and saying, Lord, what would you have me do today? What

would be the action you would have me take, you know, please

make that clear for me, so I can get up out of this bed and just

serve in the way that you would have me serve. And then she

said, and then the next prayer is the prayer for obedience. And

I said, well, what is that prayer? Oh, wait a second, I

don't think I want that prayer. I want to be able to say, well,

you know, God, you told me to do this today, but then I did had

another plan. Something else came up, so here I am. Please

forgive me, right? She's like, no, pray for obedience and see

what happens. And boy, is that a different prayer? A

Dr. Esther Graham: different prayer, different

outcome, right? Like I think about the power of

obedience and what this is, you know, Esther. I I think about

when I was a child, I didn't have much interaction with my

mother. But one interaction I did have, and I really remember

this with so much gratitude, is her giving me Proverbs three,

five, and six in this little piece of paper that I carried

around with me for so many years. Right of trust in the

Lord with all thine heart and lean not into that own

understanding, and all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall

direct your path. Well, I had to go from really listening to that

as a from a child's perspective to being a teenager and then

going to college and thinking that my way was a better way,

and that you know doing all the challenging and the things that

I went through, and I look at in in back in, you know, just

reflection. I look at how many times I was struggling, and the

hardest times of my life were when I was separated from God.

Now, what what I believe today is that God never left me, but I

had to find my way, right? I'm just curious in your own

journey. It feels like when you tell your story, you've always

been faithful. You've remembered to be obedient. Were you ever a

rebel about any of these things?

Dr. Esther Graham: Oh, 100% Yeah. Oh, yeah. One 100% You

know, the one thing I found out about myself. Well, really, I've

always known it. Is I'll speak my mind, and you know, there's a

scripture, and I would always use it. You know, when I'm in

debating, where God says, I believe it's in Isaiah, where He

says, "Come and let us reason together. And so that's my soul.

I'm like, okay, God, we we got to talk about this.

Let's reason together. I love it. You know,

and so that's

Dr. Esther Graham: always all. You said that we could talk, and

so yeah, I would. I would talk, and and the one thing I always

tell people is that I will go, I will go to bat and say, well,

why, and ask questions, you know, and do all of these

different things. At the end of the day, I'm always going to be

obedient. At the end of the day, I'm always going to be obedient,

but it's not always easy getting to the place of obedience

because sometimes obedience hurts.

Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: it's hard.

Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: sometimes it's not what you want,

especially when you don't see the outcome to the other side.

You're just like, I'm just going to be obedient. Laura, one of my

favorite scriptures is in Psalms 37, where God says, basically,

say I will instruct thee and teach you. I'll just say plain.

I will instruct you and teach you in the way that you should

go. I will guide you with my very own eyes, and for me that

means that I can close my eyes, and God, you're going to guide

me.

Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: right. You're going to instruct me, so I have

to hear you, and you're going to instruct me. And I may not see

where I'm going, but I will trust you and lean not to my own

understanding.

Very good, yeah.

Dr. Esther Graham: And I have to practice that, and I quote,

yeah, and I quote that almost every, especially when I'm in a

struggle of you know not sure is this you know then I say okay

God this is what you said and so I'm leaning into you yeah and so

no it hasn't been that it hasn't I can't say oh yeah I'll be

obedient no

the mere mortal self the mere mortal self so so

what is your. Practice. I mean, and here's I want to give a

little context for the women who maybe have not met you yet and

have not blessed to be in the room with you because you are a

blessing. We love when you're in our room. I think about some of

the women that I have I have introduced you to through our

community who have really, really benefited from your

stewardship and your guidance and your mentorship on the

spiritual path, which was not necessarily what that

introduction knew. We might have met in a business context, and

here's what I love about this: this is what I believe is divine

business, right? This idea that when a person is seeking, when

we stop trying to fight the fight and do it all ourselves.

But when a person has that inner quest, the way starts to show

up. You've been the way for several of my very close

friends, and and and and you know God is the source, Esther.

So I'm not trying to to

Dr. Esther Graham: he's definitely

any imagination, but it takes the right partner

to hold someone's hand when they're feeling that yearning

and not knowing how to get there, right? And so I've just

been really, really grateful for your guidance in your role

modeling and your stewardship of these precious lives. And I know

this is what you do. I'm wondering how you find your own

groundedness, like how you, what your daily practice looks like.

Dr. Esther Graham: So the first thing I do when I wake up in the

morning, honestly, the very first thing I do is while I'm

laying in bed, and I'll wake up and I'll say good morning. You

know, I say good morning, Jesus. You know, and and honestly, I'll

turn on the Today Show.

Yeah. That's great. I love it,

Dr. Esther Graham: and I'll I will look at that. That's how I

I saw Monica. I will look at that for a while. I don't

necessarily look at the whole thing, but I'll look at it

because it's got pieces that I like, and then I'll I'll go off

and and I'll I'll turn it down, and then I'll just begin to

meditate. Lately, just recently, I've been listening to certain

meditation scriptures every morning, and I'll just begin to

have a conversation with God. That's really important for my

day to go well.

Yes,

Dr. Esther Graham: it's really important to set the foundations

for my day and to say, okay, this is the day that you've

given me, God. What is your plan? I've got my plan, but

what's your plan for today? You know. And here's the other

I always and listen, and I'll always say because

sometimes I'm not clear. Well, if this is something you want me

to do, this is direction. I need you to make it as plain as the

nose on my face. I just need to because I don't want to go the

wrong way, so can you just give me so much clarity? It's like I

see my nose, and I know my nose is there,

and I will be listening to the mirror, and

Dr. Esther Graham: I'll literally say, "Can you do that

for me, God? You know, and then on my mirror, I've got I've got

scriptures like about three on my mirror that when I'm getting

dressed, I can see them, you know. So I think in my mornings,

that's why my day doesn't get started before 9o'clock you

know, because I really like to spend my mornings in meditation,

quietly just seeking God, thinking, you know, sometimes

reflecting, sometimes talking to my husband, and that's really

how I would get my day. Because you don't know how your day is

going to go,

right? Well, and we talked earlier this today

about the whole foundations conversation, and and

Dr. Esther Graham: I was been thinking

about this this afternoon before we got back on

to to do the interview. One of the things that as we're as

we're leading more emerging leaders, right, as we're meeting

more young women that are coming up and saying, "Hey, I need

help. I want to grow in. I want to grow up and be like you. In

which case, I say, "No, you want to be like you. You're you.

It'll be so much better than mine. Me, I'm like the Doctor

Seuss here. Like the places you'll go, I won't see how the

body you'll be. You'll be having a magnificent career over the

life. Yeah, and and they they often struggle with this piece,

Esther, right? Like how to find the time. And you remember this

when your littles were little, and my littles were little, and

how it was like get up and go, right? It's it's one of these

privileges of maturity to really have this time. And I would say

that when I when I look back at some of the most successful

times I've had in business. It it really related to strong,

healthy boundaries, and it related to a strong. Where even

when my children were little, I had to work around their school

schedule to be the mother I wanted to be. Right? That's not

about anybody else wants to be a mom, but I knew that I wanted

Dr. Esther Graham: to take

them to school, and I wanted to pick them up.

And I think at the time I was running four different

companies, and so what was required in the systems and the

structure so that I could get way more done in the short

amount of time, and included in that was dropping them in

school, going to. Stores, retail stores at the time of the

winery, and then going to the gym and exercising, right? And

getting that out of the way and getting it done, like the

priorities that we have. So I think about this spiritual

component as a non-negotiable, and and yet people feel like it

can't be done, and I feel like you're doing it. I'm doing it.

We've done it, and I and I encourage more women to try

Dr. Esther Graham: it. Yeah,

that out in your own schedule. What is there to

let go of to create space for strength, which is your priority

of your physical body, your energetic body, your spiritual

body,

Dr. Esther Graham: yes,

with yourself, your relationship,

Dr. Esther Graham: yes,

and then the the the mom or the wife or the

sister or the daughter that you show up to be in the world is

very different, very different energetically. Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: it really is, and you know, even like if

you're work, you're exercising. Like when I walk, and I. I will

admit, like lately, I haven't walked a lot, and you know, I'm

like, I got to get back into the to the to the routine. But but I

walk and pray, you know. I walk, and I'm just having this

conversation with the Lord. You know, I'm cleaning, and I may be

having a conversation. Something will come, and I say, "Well,

God, what do you think about this? Or, you know, this has

been on my mind, and can we talk about this? And so, my

conversations with God is probably like my conversation

with you. You know, yeah. I just I and yeah, and what I find is,

especially in the morning, it's so necessary for me to just

really have my mind and my thoughts and everything focused.

My staff knows not to contact me before nine a.m. unless it's a

true emergency, and I defined emergency for them.

Good for you. There's another. I

Dr. Esther Graham: defined, yeah, I defined emergency

because your emergency might not be my. I defined it for them, so

they know if it's before 9o'clock that's because that is

my time, and you don't want to disturb me before that because

you want to see you want Esther to have her coffee. That's the

other thing. I like to say that you know. So Laura, listen,

Jesus and I in the evenings drink wine together, but in the

mornings we drink coffee together.

I think one of the things that I am hearing, my

love, that's so beautiful, is you know when I started being

asked to share in a new way, right after my car accident, and

I and I just really was deep in how would you have me share? In

the first 10 years of Women, Women, you may know this

already, were really the best I knew how to do as a love letter

to the women who saw me when I could not see myself, when I was

the emerging leader. Yeah, women who mentored me and nurtured me

when my family of origin was not necessarily available, or they

didn't know. They didn't know. I was like this crazy outlier

girl. They didn't really know what to do with me. There were

these other women who came and said, "Okay, you can do this,

right? So it was this thank you to them. This next year, this

next season of life for me really feels like a love letter

to God, and I said, "How would we lead? And there's a book

written called God as My CEO. I heard Abigail Wangomi, another

good friend of mine, talk about God as my CEO, and I was like,

oh, what does that look like? Right? Read that book, and said,

all right, what does it look like today to lead with God as

my CEO? Whatever that is for me, whatever that is for you, and

also really embrace the preciousness of this time. We've

never lived in a time where there was more opportunity for

humanity.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yes, it is

a time of confusion and fear for a lot of

people. It's always been a time of confusion and fear for

people. And I apologize. I don't mean to be unkind. If you're

struggling and you're listening to this, I think about the

conversations I have with my young adult children, who are

really my greatest teachers. Yes, and I see them. You know,

unfortunately or fortunately, there have always been people

who are unkind to the world. There's always been violence.

There's been poverty. What's available today is that, like no

time in the past, we have the opportunity to reallocate

things, right? To settle the playing field. To take some of

the things that we know, not just our dollars, because our

dollars are really important. I was doing some studying today

about like the difference between how it looks that it's

in the media. It's like foundational giving or the the

latest tech billionaire is making a donation. The majority

of donations are made by people like me and you, right?

Dr. Esther Graham: Like me and you,

individuals collectively way outweigh the

dollars that are donated. But people don't get that in the

media, right? It's kind of our job to take a stand for. Each of

us doing a little bit together collectively can be better, and

because we live in a time with incredible technology, we're

more aware, which I think has people hurt more. Right, we're

more aware of what's happening in other places in the world. I

want to tell a little story, and I want to know what inspired you

to do what you did with Monica, I want to know more about the

behind the story, and I'll just say that when we went to Africa,

because I didn't know what was going on, I really didn't know.

I didn't know till we got to Africa. So I want to I want you

to tell the story, not me to tell the story. But when I

walked into the early childhood development center that Monica

had put together with your guidance, with your mentorship,

with your funding, with your wisdom-I was in a puddle. I

mean, it just it it really opened my heart in a way that

I've just been so blessed to share with so many people. One

of the reasons I wanted to have you on today. So tell me kind of

about that journey. I want to know that journey. You guys met,

and then what happened?

Dr. Esther Graham: So you know, after we met at Limitless Women,

we had breakfast together, and we just began to talk. So I was

first just talking to her about the Girl Up initiative and what

she's throwing in here, and she began to say, "I opened up. I

just started an early childhood center, and she said, "And it's

in my mom's home. And she began to. I said, "You just did what?

And I said, "You're kidding me. And I said, "That's my that's my

area of expertise, you know. And um, and so we just began to talk

about that, and I just felt an immediate. And and this is how I

knew, you know. Sometimes you just know it's God.

Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: you don't have to say God is that you know

you know it's God, and I knew it was God. And I said, tell me a

little bit about it, and tell. And then I said, tell me what do

you need, and then she began to share, and then I said, "Okay,

let's connect. Tell me what you need. Tell me where I can send

things. Tell me what you need me to do. And that's really how it

started. And I'll be honest with you, Laura. When I went to

Uganda and we went there, I was shocked.

I was like, "Look at this school! Yeah,

where did this come from? Yeah, knew it. I

Dr. Esther Graham: said, and I said, I didn't realize it. I did

not realize because I was just, you know. And I leaned. Alicia

was next to me, and I leaned over to her, and I said, I wish

you wouldn't tell people. I wish Mon. I guess I said, I wish

Monica wouldn't tell people that I did, you know. And she, and

Alicia said, No, it needs to be known, and she's just

you know. And I said, yeah, but and I said, I said, just really,

I'm just gonna keep, you know, let it just, let it just go. So,

and so, and then in a way, I was kind of embarrassed because I

like, you know, it's like, oh gosh, you know, and I felt like,

okay, hello. I didn't realize it. I think that when you're

given and God just blesses blesses you to give, and you

just have a heart for something, you're not counting. You're just

doing

it. Yeah. Well, and

Dr. Esther Graham: again,

it's the it's the little bit

Dr. Esther Graham: here. It's a little bit

of what you know. Even with it, we were

Esther and I were working together with Monica. Monica

Nargawab was the person we're talking about. Who is the

founder of Girl Up Uganda? You can find her episode here on the

Limitless Women podcast. She is a remarkable young woman, one of

our favorite daughters, right? That we get to be in love with

and get to spend time with, and and she's a woman who is

probably one of the most receptive women I've ever met,

as far as you know, if you say to her Monica, "Here's some

guidance, here's some support. I mean, she takes she takes it all

on behalf of those she's here to serve. Right, such a generous

servant, and so I'm sure she met you, and the light bulb went

off, and there you go. The

Dr. Esther Graham: light bulb went off, and still, you know,

we're still active in the Girl Up Initiative. We still give to

that, but then we've got this whole wonderful early childhood

center, and I'm so super excited that, like, I plan on going back

because I want to see the new center she's building. And I

asked her this, like, what is it that you need for that? Because

these are our future. The children, they're our future,

you know. And when we pour into them and we give them the best

that we have, I said to Monica and I said to my staff here, I

said I would love to take you guys back to Uganda so you could

see what they're doing, so you could get motivated because here

we have things easy.

We do. You

Dr. Esther Graham: understand what I mean? We have things.

We don't think we do, but we do, yeah. We

Dr. Esther Graham: don't think we do, but we have things easy.

I have a staff; if they need something, they just go and get

it. Monica's staff can't do that, right? Right. And then

everything they get, they're so appreciative of it. And so I

said, you know, and I thought, wouldn't it be great if they

would, if we could bring. Two teams together to learn-that

would be amazing.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, and wouldn't be amazing. Yeah, I

mean, other

learn from their team, right? I mean,

Dr. Esther Graham: exactly. That's the place. Exactly. So

much. That's the place, and it's just so amazing that I would

love that. And so, the you know when when I look at Monica and I

look at this wonderful team and I look at her as a leader. She

is a phenomenal leader, and I look at what she's doing-not

just for the girls, for these beautiful young, three, four

infants, all of them, for the moms there who cannot afford

childcare-and she's saying, "Let me give this to you.

Yeah. Well, she's

Dr. Esther Graham: always going to be blessed because she's a

giver.

She is, and you, yeah, and and you cannot give

God. Like the more you give, the more it comes back. We talked

about that. I think the idea too is that Girl Up Uganda

Initiative is not only working with these little folks, right,

but we work together on the ground. Probably one of the

greatest awarenesses I've had in the last few years of the

potential for humanity, right? Being in this leadership camp.

So, for context, if you're listening to this and you

haven't you haven't looked up Girl Up Uganda, please do so.

We're happy to share those links with you. But the initiative

right now has a little bit over 3000 students, mostly girls, a

few boys, and they're you know I'm not sure exactly what the

ratio is, but of 3000 students, 300 of them were invited to the

leadership camp when we got a chance to be with them and work

with them and spend time with them, and their vision and their

fierceness and how each of them, in their own ways, or leaders in

their community, really leads me to know that we're going to be

okay.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are. We are. Yeah, and

when when you look at, you know, just the the the entire picture,

it is just a phenomenal. It is phenomenal, and and you think

about you know Monica, she's got great donors, and then she's

just got people like me and you, and who and that just says the

one thing I always tell people because I talk about Monica and

what she's doing quite a bit, and for people to give, it's you

know it's not you know sometimes people are not trusting oh

they're you know what are they doing with no this is so legit.

It's the 501 c3 When your money is going to a good place, it's

going into let's say good soil.

Yes, right.

Dr. Esther Graham: That's taking root and growing, and that's

what you want to look for. You're looking at the results

that's there, and it is just so powerful.

Well, and I thought today, Esther, we would

talk a little bit about systems and building businesses. But as

usual, God had a better plan, and so here, what we have here

is instead what it is to lead with faith, right? What it is to

actually walk in faith as a leader, and then take the the

bounty, right? The fruits of those labors, and have that. You

know, really, our our goal for every woman is have sufficiency

for yourself, and then have from the overflow the joy of giving,

and you having your experience and your wisdom. You have your

time, your talents, and your tithes all going in great

directions. And I know Monica's organization is one of so many

that you touch and serve. And I just think about again what a

beautiful role model you've been to me as a friend, and as a

peer, and as a member of our Limitless Women community. So I

just want to say thank you for that.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, thank you, thank you for having me.

It's really been a blessing for me. The people I've met, and as

you've said, I've built strong relationships, and I I love it.

I just love the community. Period. Yeah. Any any

final words? We've got this this like super

rich container we've done today. I was like, "Oh, I'm going to

keep you for half an hour. I could I could keep you for four

hours. Even though we talked this morning, I keep talking to

you all day. What any other advice for a woman who's

listening to this who says, "You know, that's easy for you to

say, Esther. You got it all together. What any other advice

for you know the journey of entrepreneurship? You know,

we're celebrating the the opportunity to give. It's not

neither one of us had somebody write us a check, right? We we

really bootstrapped and made things happen with business, and

we we we were rare and paid attention when the opportunities

came and did the work. So I'm just saying, you know, thank

you, Lord, for the opportunity. What other thing do you wish you

knew then that you know today?

Dr. Esther Graham: What I wish I knew then that I know today, and

I know this maybe this will sound a little bit cliche, was

that I always felt I had a deep faith in God, but even a deeper

faith that no matter. My plans are that if I could just release

it and not try to control it, right? I wish I knew that then.

I probably would have been just headed, you know, not have to go

through. I want to say not have to go through so many growing

pains. You you know what I mean, and just

multiple growing pleasures, but we get we

Dr. Esther Graham: get yeah, yeah, you know, and so yeah,

grown because I mean, at the end, they're all for your good,

right? And so that's what I I wish I would have known. Where

you know I had faith then, but my faith is just so much deeper

now.

Yeah,

Dr. Esther Graham: and and and I know that faith is just a growth

thing. You know that you know God gives us each a measure of

faith. So if you have faith as a mustard seed, you know you can

speak to anything and it'll be removed because our tongue is

like the pen of a ready writer. So we can speak some things into

existence. You know, and I wish I would have known that to the

fullness that I know it now. Do you understand what I mean?

I do, I do, and I think that I want to go back

and capture what you just said about the mustard seed because

that's what I watched happen with women in our community that

met you is that they had that there was a little seed of

something in there, and they needed to go to fertile ground,

to be able to have a safe place to open and listen to

themselves, right? To listen to the Holy Spirit, to listen to

the guide within them. They had either been conditioned out, or

they had done like I did as a young person, maybe broke up and

thought, "Okay, I'm going to do this my way instead. And I'm

just again watching. One of the reasons I'm eager to get you

back, get you in front of my community as much as possible.

I'm thinking like we need a podcast on relationships with

you. We need a podcast on hiring with you. We need a podcast on

scaling with you. I have all these things that you could talk

about for hours, and we would be so blessed. And for today's

conversation, that mustard seed, you know, trusting that must

receive faith and listening and nurturing it, and thank you for

sharing how your practice actually looks. Because we

sometimes need the how, right? Sometimes we need the how.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, and sometimes you may have that

voice that says, "Oh, you don't have faith. I always go back. I

even made necklaces for one of my conferences. I made necklaces

that had mustard seed. So get a mustard seed if you ever want to

be encouraging. You think, oh, I don't have faith. Go ahead and

grab a mustard seed and see how small this. You can't even

really see it. You know, just yeah, you got to have a whole

bunch to see them all. If you just get one, you don't even

really see it. So think about that. That's just it. That's the

only faith you need to get. And if you just have that little

teeny bit, you can speak to anything.

Yeah, so beautiful, honey. So so

beautiful.

Dr. Esther Graham: You know. And so always. That's what I would

want to say. Always remember that. That's all you need.

That's all you need.

We want to make sure that our community, whether

listening to this right when it comes out or listening to this

years from now, knows how to be in touch with you. So we make

sure we put the links in, make sure that they know while it's

available. Because I don't know, you know, again, you got to get

it while it's hot. Sometimes I think that's another thing to

know in this world is that when you see the opportunity, go for

it. Like, don't wait until you think that you're ready and you

think you're prepared and you got it. You know, like this is

that whole piece of you being perfect the way you are right

now. God knows what you need and leaning in. You and John are

doing some really beautiful things. Can you tell me a little

bit about that before we wrap up. Like, just what this tell us

a little bit about. This is completely a different subject

than what we came here for. But I just feel that there's going

to be someone who's listening to this in the future that may need

to know that marriage can be one of the most beautiful.

Dr. Esther Graham: Oh, it

is of your life, and it doesn't always be so

hard.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah. So John and I have a marriage mentorship

program, and we started doing marriage mentorship retreats

because people began to request it, and we were like, "Oh, we

don't have anything to share. And we discovered that we did.

You know, we've been married for 30-eight years, and we've had

good times, bad times, ups, down. Speaking about divorce,

well, I was speaking of divorce. He bought the bounds like. like,

"What's it? I'm out. We're done. And so we've got this marriage

mentorship program that's just growing and growing. And so we

have couples coming to us that are about to get married.

They're considering it, and they'll begin to talk with them.

We'll mentor them, and then we've got those who've been

married. And it's not about if you have a bad marriage. That's

not what the mentorship program. It is if you're in your marriage

and you want your marriage not to survive anymore. You want to

thrive, or if it's thriving, you want to go deeper. You know, you

want to grow closer, and you want to do it in every area.

Because the marriage-that's a relationship, really, between

you and God, you know. And we have this triangle like this:

that as you go up the triangle, each end, then you get closer to

God. As you go, you know, as your marriage gets closer

together, right? And so that's basically what we teach. We have

everyone from all different walks of life,

all different traditions are welcome.

Dr. Esther Graham: All oh, all different traditions are

welcome. All cultures are welcome. We're just focused on

that and how you're doing in your marriage, you know. And

it's it's it's been great. We've got young. We've got it as much

as about to get married to one year of marriage to our 5354

years of marriage. Wow,

and I. I think it's something that I I believe

that I'm alive and breathing. God's not done with me yet. I

think about the depth. Scott and I are at 26 years now, and I

think about the depth that I didn't know what I didn't know.

Right? Like I mean, I didn't know what's available and how

beautiful it can be, and it's not. It's someday it's not easy,

right? Yeah, and

Dr. Esther Graham: then like in in the mentorship or even at the

retreats, because we've got a wide span, some other couple may

have something to share with that younger couple that say,

you know, we were once there, and so it's not just about us,

but you may have something, some wisdom to share after yeah I've

been married 26 years or 40 years and this is because what I

found out is that we could all learn from each other. This is

what marriage is about. This is how we could come together as

one.

Well, I want to give a shout out and a

testimonial. Having spent time traveling literally around the

world with Esther and Jonathan, that they walk their talk, and

so as delicious as she is, as you're listening to her, maybe

seeing us on YouTube today. At the end of the day, we're

recording. I just as as yummy and delicious as Esther is, I'll

tell you, you'll just want more. You can never get too much. You

just want more and more of Esther. So Esther, thank

Dr. Esther Graham: you so much. Thank you, thank you so much

that

you do in the world. Thank you for being such

a beautiful role model to myself and so many others, and really,

you know, epitomizing that a woman can, and that ordinary

women do extraordinary things. And it's just, you know, again,

you can do this from a place of generosity and support, and know

that you're not alone. And I really appreciate how this

conversation really God was in the house today.

Dr. Esther Graham: Yeah, Amen. Good stuff, Frank. Good

stuff. I love you a bunch. I can't wait to see

you again

Dr. Esther Graham: soon. All right, see you soon.

See you in touch, Doll. Bye. Bye.