Tips for Creating Coparenting Plans That Reduce Conflict

[00:00:02] It's Mardi Winder. I'm sneaking in here before the first part of the podcast. Nobody gets married thinking they're going to get divorced. And when you find yourself facing that possibility, or maybe in the middle of it, or at the end, there are so many questions that you need to answer. What should you be doing? What mistakes do you need to avoid? And how do you make decisions that could affect the

[00:00:27] rest of your life when you're barely keeping it together today? That's why I created the D Shift Summit. On October 28th, I'm bringing together 20 incredible women divorce professionals who understand what you're facing and who want to help you make informed decisions about your future. Because here's what I know after years of working with women going through divorce. The more you

[00:00:52] understand, the more confidently you can move forward. On October 28th, join us for the summit. Go to www.thedshiftsummit.com to register. I'd love to see you there. Welcome to the D Shift podcast, where we provide inspiration, motivation, and education to help you

[00:01:21] transition from the challenges of divorce to discover the freedom and ability to live life on your own terms. Are you ready? Let's get this shift started. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the D Shift podcast. And today I get to interview a guest that I've had on Spotlight on the Divorce Experts, which some of you know is my YouTube episode series that I'm doing to help people understand all the

[00:01:49] intricacies of going through a divorce. And today I am so happy to welcome Nicole Sodoma to my podcast. Again, she was on the YouTube already. I'm going to drop the link for that in our show notes. But she is a nationally recognized family law attorney, an author, a speaker, and a thought leader around the whole idea of divorce, co-parenting, and modern family dynamics. She is the founder and managing

[00:02:13] principal of Sodoma Law, the largest law firm in North and South Carolina. Nicole is a certified parenting coordinator, a former litigator, and she is also a collaborative law attorney. So she brings a wealth of knowledge and experience. She's also had this experience of dealing with the dynamics of co-parenting during divorce. And she is the author of the book, Please Don't Say You're Sorry. So,

[00:02:41] Nicole, welcome. Hi, it's so funny to hear about yourself. Like no matter how many times I hear some version of that, I always think, oh yeah, that's pretty cool. That was good. Oh, it's always like, who are they talking about? And I'm so, yeah, and I'm so, I am honestly so happy to have you on here because your expertise and the whole idea of what a co-parenting plan or

[00:03:09] parenting plan, depending on where you live, they're called different things, but what this should really look like. I know we talked a lot on the podcast about the, or on the YouTube about the high conflict situation and parallel parenting. And not everybody has to go to those kind of levels. Like some people are just going to have better relationships during divorce. Do you find that most people, at least that's their goal when they're, when they're going through this co-parenting

[00:03:38] situation? Well, one of the things we talked about on, I think that we talked about was the idea that, you know, some people think that if they have ended up in the place where they're parallel parenting, that they've somehow failed. And I think that's so much a matter of perspective because ending up in that place doesn't necessarily mean you failed. It means that you've all figured out that

[00:04:01] this is what's best for your children. And sometimes less communication, um, less for the idea that you thought you were going to be friends with your ex has now is, is no longer an option. And so, you know, it's, it's so much a matter of perspective. So, you know, starting with, uh, the idea of nesting, even, you know, nesting is a parenting plan. It is not for everyone moving to a co-parenting plan

[00:04:30] and then a parallel parenting plan, depending on the level of conflict. That's the reality. Yes. And, and just for people that are maybe new to this and have never heard this nesting is where one, there's one home and the parents kind of spend time with the kids in the home and then go off when it's not there, when it's not there, their time with the kids. Is that, is that kind of your definition of what that nesting means? Right. I mean, I describe it as literally the birds remain

[00:04:56] in the nest, right? Right. So, and that's comfortable for them. And, but nesting is not always an option. First of all, it might be expensive depending on what your circumstances are as a family. If you don't have somewhere else to go, um, if you don't have the means to rent another apartment, is there a friend's house or a relative's house where you can go? The other is you really don't have a lot of boundaries with, with the other parent because

[00:05:21] you are still living in the same home. The, the, the reality is, is that this is not a permanent situation. This is a temporary situation to get, um, I always think about like to become more familiar with this idea. And I think it's so interesting because the families that have nested that I've spoken to, the majority of them, the children don't even realize that the nesting is happening. Right. You know, especially if there are two working parents, they don't even realize it.

[00:05:49] And so that's a mindset thing as well. And I think parents overlook like how the children are receiving the situation versus how they're receiving the situation. And I think, you know, nesting is, can be very effective if you have children who may be neurodivergent or kids that have, um, special, uh, special needs for physical or medical equipment within the home. Sometimes that

[00:06:14] makes it a little bit more of a long-term arrangement, but I haven't really found too many parents that have said, gosh, this is something we want to do for the next 18 years. If our kids are young, right? Cause there's, there's too much overlap when you're trying to get away from each other's lives. There's too much overlap. Not a one, not a one. Have I ever had anyone think they

[00:06:39] thought this is a great option and we're going to do this as long as we can. And, uh, I encourage them to not do that. Like it's, it's really, it's been, well, the, the obvious is if there's abuse, addiction, you know, um, if you're going to have another partner, uh, outside of the partner that you had your children with, it is really not a great option. Um, so it's, it's, it's really a

[00:07:05] temporary option. So, um, yeah. And like I said, you know, there are not a lot of boundaries in nesting. So if you do, I think it's pretty Pollyanna. Um, and that's not a negative. It's just, it is Pollyanna for, uh, parents to think that is something that's sustainable. It's just not. And so it's okay to start that way if your family dynamics support it, but going into a co-parenting

[00:07:29] schedule, um, is, is the more natural next step. And like you said, you know, um, depending on where you are co-parenting is, um, by definition, right? Like it's the idea of how we're going to parent together. But when we, you know, really dig down into it, it's, we're looking at what a parenting schedule looks like. Uh, some people would call that a visitation agreement. So it's where the

[00:07:57] children put their heads on their pillow at night and how we're going to make decisions for them and what the intricacies are around that circumstance. Yeah. And, and one thing I, cause like you, I'm also a certified co-parenting or parenting coordinator. And it's really interesting because one of the things I really, and I don't do it anymore, but I really used to stress with my clients is don't call it custody and visitation to your children. You know, talk to your kids. This is

[00:08:23] time to spend with mom. This is time to spend with dad. Make it sound natural. Don't use court terms with your kids, especially, especially little kids, but even the bigger kids are really, you know, the teens and the tweens, they're really sensitive to the kind of language that parents use. So I think that's important, but Nicole, let's go. In fact, we, in my jurisdiction, um, where I practice, I asked the court many, many years ago to not refer to it that way. Statutorily, we have to call it a certain thing.

[00:08:52] Uh, in certain documents, but when we're in the courtroom, when I draft orders, um, we, in fact, our local rule here is it's mother, father, not plaintiff defendant, which I love because it turns them into humans, but children don't want to feel like there's ownership. And why would a parent visit with me? They're still my parent. And so, um, it really, I don't love it either. I'm with you as a

[00:09:16] parenting coordinator, but also it is, um, it makes one parent guarded and defensive. If they're the parent, the secondary parent, the parent who has less parenting time. So that's a really good thing to point out. I think like we're all talking about the same thing, but we all are going to label it differently. And if you want to feel conflict, if you want to feel like, you know, use those words,

[00:09:42] use custody visitation, it is not going to go well for very long. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit, because I know that one of your areas, one of your many areas of specialty is creating the, the, um, an effective co-parenting plan, um, for your clients. What, what are some of the essentials that need to be in a co-parenting plan?

[00:10:06] So one of the things that, um, we talked about last time we touched on it was, you know, um, you're never going to catch all of it. Right. But there are some things that you can catch. And my example, and the one that I use often, because it's often overlooked is when we do a transition, often it will say mother shall father shall pick up the children, deliver the children at blank time at

[00:10:34] this place. Right. Super simple should be one sentence. Okay. However, uh, the things we have to think about easy to catch. What if school's not in session? What if that place is closed? Uh, what if there's inclement weather? People don't usually think about the inclement weather one. Um, but the other thing that people don't think about and as often overlooked is does it have to be mother and father? Can it be someone else other than mother and father? So reconsider the

[00:11:02] language. If it's mother shall be responsible for that's very different. That means that mom, if mom is working, she could send a friend, she could send somebody from her work. If she can't get out the same for dad, if dad is traveling, but it's going to be, and I don't, that kind of sounds stereotypical, but let's say, uh, dad is it's a Monday and dad had a long weekend on vacation somewhere and is coming back on Monday and the exchanges at two o'clock and can't make it back in time.

[00:11:30] It's okay that someone else do that exchange for him. If you're looking at the exact language of the order and in a high conflict situation, one of those parents is going to be looking at exactly the language of the order to make sure they're following it to the T. Right. And so that is very annoying and difficult for the parent who doesn't look at that order like that, who wants the flexibility, who thinks flexibility is better for the children. So that's an example of a really easy fix in a

[00:11:59] parenting plan that often gets overlooked. Yeah. And I love, love, love that you brought up this idea of the language of the parenting plan or the co-parenting plan, because I have had, and I've talked to many mediators. I've sat in many, many mediation conferences and heard all kinds of people expounding on the, you know, development of co-parenting plans. And one of the things that I

[00:12:22] find a little disturbing is just, well, let's, let's keep it specifically vague so that it's easy for the parents to be flexible and accommodate what's going on. And that may work in a very amicable divorce where both parents are in lockstep with what they want to see happen to their kids. And every, their, every parenting decision is okay with both parents, but how often does that actually

[00:12:52] really happen? And that flexible language can become like the, your Achilles heel for the whole, for the whole rest of your co-parenting relationship. I mean, listen, Marty, the opposite is to put in a lot of details and it be the backup plan so that you can be flexible. Right. So, you know, I'd rather have a backup plan that feels rigid and, and the flexibility to work together because you

[00:13:21] always can agree outside of the document. You always can agree. Yeah, this is what was working then. But if we both agree to do this exchange somewhere else, it's not like we're in contempt. We're not in breach of an agreement. We're both agreeing to do something different. Now, you know, the risk in making changes like that. First, usually there's usually a provision in your order that's going to say temporary modifications to this document are not intended to replace the actual

[00:13:49] terms of the document. There's probably that boilerplate in there somewhere. But if you do that temporary thing for long enough, you might find that somebody files a modification or requests a modification because you did it differently for so long. Now that's the risk, but the reality is it, gosh, I keep saying that the reality is I need to quit saying that because that is, but that's exactly how I feel. Like you think it's going to go a certain way. And what happens as a parent is it

[00:14:19] doesn't go the way you thought because there are two people involved. Right. And the other piece I want to mention about that, leaving it vague and ambiguous because we're getting along now is it is not preparing you for the not now. The two years from now when you've met someone and you now have a blended family and your original, you know, intact family, that guy or that girl is not happy about it because

[00:14:45] you ended up with someone they knew or they don't want you to be with someone else because maybe they still have feelings. So it works until it doesn't work. And so the idea of not planning for that is such a disservice to your kids. So do it now, make it the backup plan. And then while I know hope is not a strategy, we hope that we both are emotionally mature enough to do what is right for our kids.

[00:15:14] Yeah. And that's, that's the key when you're dealing with a parent that you are able to sit down and talk to and who, who is able to empathize with what the kids are experiencing, what you're experiencing to a certain degree. That's one whole ballgame. But the other ballgame is the parent who is like, don't care. This is how I want it. Give me what I want or and then the threats start and I'm

[00:15:40] not talking physical threats here. But you know that the will I'm going to take you back to court. And if you're already strapped for cash, the last thing you want to do is go back to court. So that kind of domestic terrorism continues. I know that's not quite the right word. But you know, the emotional abuse and the manipulation and now the kids become the tool to continue that that targeted attack on you post

[00:16:04] post divorce. Well, and to think that your children don't notice is just inaccurate. So, you know, I they all have different coping skills. But to think that they're not noticing the stress on you when those threats start, and the fear of, you know, you're constantly second guessing yourself and wondering,

[00:16:29] when am I going to get served with a complaint? When am I going to get served with emotion? And it isn't it's not a good place to be. It's, it's, it's, and that's, you know, that's part of the journey. You don't want it to go there. But it is something that at least you want your document to set you up for success. Right. So another example would be, you know, in our legal custody provisions, which when we say legal custody,

[00:16:53] just as a reminder, we're talking about how we make decisions for our children. And if you have a joint legal custody provision, and it requires you both to agree, you always have to prepare for what happens when you don't agree. And so there's so many ways around this, it could be, you know, you could divide it by topic. So usually, when we're talking about big decisions, we're talking about religion,

[00:17:19] education, medical, medical, thanks, religion, education, medical. And you know, I feel like relocation is not usually in there. But it is one of the biggest decisions. And one of the most difficult decisions that parents have to make, especially with the market, depending on, you know, whatever is happening at the time, right? I remember post 2008. I mean, this was a really big

[00:17:49] issue. I mean, we were in court all the time, because people were losing their jobs. And the only opportunity they had were in places other than where their children needed to be. And they are free to go. But their children are required to stay where both parents can exercise parenting time as ordered. And so, you know, how do you make those legal custody provisions work for your family? Do you divide it by issue? Do you say, you know, on education, you were always the one that was making

[00:18:18] those decisions for education. So you get to make those decisions, unless it's private school versus public, because that's going to cost me financially. Maybe it's medical, maybe you were the one that was always in charge of the medical appointments. Do you get to make those decisions? Or usually a better option is we're going to have our pediatrician tell us what to do. And if we then still disagree, we're going to get a second opinion from another pediatrician. So there are all these ways to

[00:18:46] use a parenting coordinator to use your order as a tool. If you, you know, if you have the right tools in the toolbox, you can figure this out. Right. And I'm going to stress this, because I think parenting coordinators are incredibly invaluable to high conflict people after divorce. They're also an additional cost to the family. And I, again, I've been out of the parenting coordinator role for quite a while, but it used to be we were appointed when I was doing it, we were appointed for six

[00:19:16] months to a year. And we would continue to meet with the meet with the family. We were kind of like the tiebreaker when there was decisions to be made. It was it was a very complex role. And are the other role was to try to help the parents become more effective at communicating with each other. So it's kind of like having a mediator in your pocket, sort of if problems came up. But again,

[00:19:43] it's it's it's a wonderful idea, but it costs the family. So if there's any way you can do things without involving other professionals, you're going to be I always tell my people, you're going to be so much farther ahead because you're going to have the skills, the confidence, and you're going to be hopefully building that relationship. Again, you it takes two people to want to do that, though, if one person doesn't want to do it, you can want all you want, and it's not going to happen.

[00:20:10] Well, I can speak as a parenting coordinator. I can speak as one of I think we have probably 10 parenting coordinators among our attorneys here. But I also in my own case, went through three parenting coordinators. So I think parenting coordinators are treasures. But I think they can

[00:20:34] not be I mean, there's, you know, some, and I'm not speaking about my particular case, but lawyers sometimes advise their clients to use a parenting coordinator, so that there is someone else who can show the court how the other parent is behaving, right? Because remember, this parenting coordinator is a neutral party. They are not aligned with either parent, they shouldn't be the communication

[00:21:02] with them is not confidential. They are as if they're acting as the court without judicial authority, except to make temporary decisions. So yes, there you might you might you're going to be paying for it unless the judge orders otherwise, or unless you both agree otherwise, or your agreement says otherwise, you're usually splitting the cost of the parenting coordinator. But sometimes it's worth it, because

[00:21:26] that may be the only way the judge really gets to hear what it's like to communicate with that person. And communication, the ability to communicate, the ability to co parent is going to be a driver for your custody order or your parenting plan. If they if it's in if you're in a modification case, it's going to make a difference. And so it's just something to think about, because it is a they are

[00:21:55] a very useful tool tool if you need them to be. Absolutely, absolutely. And there definitely are cases where and in here in Texas for a while. And again, this is my my I've been out of it for like, I say, several, almost a decade, I haven't done it. But there was two different branches, there was a parenting coordinator, which was appointed by the court and reported to the court. And then there was something called a parenting facilitator that worked that that was more of

[00:22:21] the confidential role. In other words, they didn't report directly to the court, they either said, yes, it should continue or no, it shouldn't. But they didn't go into court and actually, you know, prepare reports or testify or do that. And, you know, so if you're a parent, of course, you went with the parenting coordinator, because that way you had exactly what you said, the ability to create a clear, neutral person who has observed the challenge,

[00:22:45] of co parenting in your particular relationship. So absolutely a great resource at times. Yeah. And, you know, to structure the communication, because yes, no, what we're talking about, and we talk about co parenting, and these parenting plans are custody orders, visitation agreements, whatever we want to call them, depending on your state, and, you know, your local rules, but,

[00:23:08] you know, that outside of the actual parenting plan, really, the communication plan becomes so important. And, I don't know, I feel like that's just one of those areas that really also gets overlooked, because it's so easy to under communicate, over communicate, not have rules or structure, no boundaries around that, what that communication is. And in a high conflict case,

[00:23:34] what may feel normal to someone is not normal to the other, because they're experiencing it differently. So, you know, and the age of your children, that matters. So, you know, what like a parenting coordinator, or without a parenting coordinator, there should be some idea of how we're going to communicate. Is it by email? Is it through a software program like OFW, our family wizard? Is it

[00:24:02] through a shared Gmail account? How are we going to communicate with teachers and coaches and, you know, school administration, doctors? And then how often do we communicate with each other when there's not an emergency? Right. Right. So, I mean, personally, I tend to be an over communicator, and I had to make tons of changes. I mean, looking back six years at my communication,

[00:24:28] which I happened, I actually did last night, because I was remembering something that I'll actually be talking about, I think on a reel today, how, you know, the, I was really over communicated, because I felt like that's what I would want to hear from my co-parent. I would want to know all of these details. And the reality is, it's like, oh, I said it again, the reality is that not everyone,

[00:24:55] one, it thinks about that parenting plan, that communication the same. Right. And that may not have been working for, for the other parent. Now my communication is very different, because I had to adjust it to the circumstances. So, you know, a parenting coordinator can help with that, or you can, you know, try to figure out, depending on personalities and your plan, what works best.

[00:25:21] Yeah. And I know a lot of families start out with everything is going to be in email. That's nice, because everybody knows that's written, that's recorded, that can be printed out, that can be added to whatever documents you want to add it to. And that tends to help people stay a little bit neutral. And it also helps you think about, do I want to hit that send button? You can review it, it's not like a spoken thing where you might blurt something out and then go, oh my god, why did I say

[00:25:48] that? You know, it gives you the opportunity to really review that. And there's, there's lots of technology now that that's helpful too. Like you said, Our Family Wizard, I've had them on, you know, they have a great program. I just talked to Saul Kennedy from Best Interest. He's got that new app that actually filters out all that toxic language. So all you get is the facts from the other person. And so there's lots of, there's lots of ways that you can do this. It's just a matter of knowing to

[00:26:18] talk about them. So Nicole, thank you for sharing all this. I think this is little, just little tidbits of things that can make a huge difference. Nicole, before we get off the call, though, I do want to ask you what, of everything we've talked about today, what's kind of the one takeaway or the golden nugget of wisdom you want to leave with people about this whole idea of these plans and working to

[00:26:41] together as co parents? My advice, since my own separation, and the one that I lived by for many, many months, was not so much about the plan itself, your perception, their perception, but realizing what your choices are along the way, and making sure that you're making the right choices. And I reference

[00:27:08] this idea of having a stimulus and a response. And there is a middle ground, there is a middle point between that stimulus and response, where you need to think about how you're going to respond, because how you're going to respond is could change the trajectory of your relationship, of that decision of that moment. And so to be really aware of that control, that power,

[00:27:34] that choice that you have. So between stimulus and response, there is space. And in that space is the freedom to choose. And that is from a book I read a long time ago. And I still live by it. And I still encourage my clients to live by it. And so that would be my nugget. That is a great nugget. And Nicole, if people want to find out more about you, or maybe want to reach out to work with you and your law firm, what's the best way to do that?

[00:28:02] You can find me on any social media platform. I try to spend most of my time on Instagram, and it's Nicole Sodoma, S-O-D-O-M-A. And hopefully, I love the engagement. I love the questions and the challenges. We're all experiencing something different. But we all have this same foundation of trying to work through how we can parent, how we can be better together and for our kids.

[00:28:27] Love that. And I'm going to make sure all of Nicole's social media links and everything are in the show notes. Definitely follow her. I started following her. She has some great information that comes out there. Nicole, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm also going to link our YouTube episode to this. So if you're interested in hearing about the parallel parenting and more challenges with the high conflict stuff, definitely hop over to the YouTube channel and listen there. Nicole, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks, Marty. Good seeing you.

[00:28:57] Good to see you again. And thank you, everyone, for listening. And don't forget to tune in to the next episode. Thanks for listening and supporting the D-SHIFT podcast. If you would like to attend live trainings by our amazing guests and have a chance to ask questions and get answers from our experts, join the D-SHIFT crew. For more details and to sign up, head on over to www.divorcecoachforwomen and click on the podcast page.