Should You Do Your Own Divorce? What You Need to Know First

[00:00:07] Welcome to the D Shift Podcast, where we provide inspiration, motivation, and education to help you transition from the challenges of divorce to discover the freedom and ability to live life on your own terms. Are you ready? Let's get this shift started. Hello and welcome to this episode of the D Shift Podcast.

[00:00:29] And today we're going to be talking all about the pros and cons of doing a do-it-yourself divorce and how you could potentially utilize this strategy or you may want to really reconsider this strategy. And I have a true expert on this. Tracy B has been a family attorney for many, many, many, many years. And I'm going to let her tell about her story.

[00:00:58] But what she decided to do was instead of practicing law, she wanted to work to help people to be able to navigate the family court system on their own, doing what we call in most areas a pro-say divorce. Some places it's called pro-per, but it really is doing divorce on your own. And again, there's people who can do this and it works wonderfully. It can be a great strategy.

[00:01:23] And there's times when it should be used with caution and there's times when that should be a clear, hell no, this is not the right thing to do. So Tracy, I've set you up now and I really do appreciate this. So again, you know, Tracy has years of experience in the family court system as an attorney. And I think that is an invaluable level of experience she can bring to working with her clients today.

[00:01:51] So Tracy, welcome and thank you in advance. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being here. This is a very important topic. It really is because especially, you know, let's face it, in today's economy, it can be tough, especially if you know that you're looking at, you know, a divorce that is fairly amicable. And there might be a way to work through this on your own.

[00:02:17] So I know you're going to be a good option, but you can't just go into mediation like, oh, hey, let's go in there and see what comes out. That's really a big mistake. So I know we're going to get into all of that, but let's start first, Tracy, with I know I shared just a really brief level of your expertise and experience. But what got you into supporting people this way rather than staying as a traditional attorney through the court system?

[00:02:43] So I was in solo practice as a family law attorney for years. And I remember when I switched over to family law, I was in a courtroom talking to a family court judge. And she knew me from when I did civil. And she called me to the bench and she said to me, hey, nice to see you. But I'm going to tell you right now, in five years, you're going to be burned out. You're not going to last in this area of law because it's really, really, really stressful. And she was right.

[00:03:09] And so but the major thing that, you know, really concerned me was the level of people that really needed guidance and assistance and not give up on their cases just because they have a lack of resources or lack of support or lack of something. And so I left the profession altogether to raise my son.

[00:03:29] And when I came back, I realized there was a really, really important need for people, even whether they decide to self-represent or not. They need the guidance and the assistance and the support to decide responsibly if they're going to do that. And if they're going to, at some point, hire an attorney, they need to choose the right attorney and they need to learn to maximize that experience.

[00:03:56] So my motive for actually doing this is a culmination of things. And so I've been doing this for the past six years. And I must tell you, doing this is way more fulfilling than practice in law. I don't have, you know, peers that I have to, you know, play nice with. I don't have judges that I have to kiss the ring all the time. I'm literally just working with my clients and working to help them navigate their divorce or custody case as successfully as possible, giving the climax.

[00:04:25] I'm in the climate of family court right now. Yeah. And I think the other thing, you know, that there's there's this idea that and this is nothing against attorneys or the law system. I mean, the family court system is what it is. You know, we can all point fingers and we can all notice the flaws for the vast majority of people. Family court works fairly decently.

[00:04:50] The problem is, if you're if you're if you're dealing with somebody on the other side who is not playing fair, who is openly hostile towards you, who is making false allegations, who is doing all kinds of weirdness on their side. That's when the family court really falls down for a lot of people. And I like what you said, that attorneys have their role within that family court system.

[00:05:17] And, you know, they're the typical attorney is not going to be Matlock or, you know, a typical judge is not going to be Judge Judy or whoever you're thinking of. They're going to be a civil servant who is doing their job or, you know, a private hired professional. And you're not their only client. And, you know, so it's this mismatch before between what people think is going to happen and what really does happen. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:05:46] I must tell you, when I was in private practice, I realized all the things, all the concerns, all the disappointment. I realized in retrospect why family law happens to be have the highest dissatisfaction rate in the industry, because a lot of the things that, you know, litigants, pro se or not, complain about. Now, I've done those things.

[00:06:08] Or I intentionally made sure they didn't understand the family court process or that they didn't understand the dynamics between myself and opposing counsel intentionally so that I can continue to build them or continue to navigate their case the way I saw it that suited my needs, my motives, my goals, not theirs. Right. So now I get to actually avoid all that. I don't have to do any of that.

[00:06:33] I can literally focus on each client and what they need in their case, in their life, and in their future. And it's so much more, again, it's so much more fulfilling. Yeah. It's challenging, but it's much more fulfilling. And you're right. There's definitely times where people can do this on their own. There's times, like I said, you know, there's maybe a yellow caution flag on the track that you need to look at. And then there's times when I know that because we've talked before, I know there's times when you tell people, hey, you're doing this.

[00:07:02] But there's huge risks here. And, you know, there are reasons why attorneys go to school for so many years because, you know, you can't just open up a family code and read it in the night or Google it or chat GPT it or, you know, AI it and get the answers. Because there's so many subtleties and there's precedences and there's things you need to understand. So let's go into your area of focus right now, Tracy.

[00:07:28] What would make a good case for somebody who's thinking, well, I'd like to save some money. I'd like to try to do this as a pro se person going through divorce. What are doing divorce without an attorney? What what would make kind of green flags for that to be a good option? OK, let's let's take the state of Florida. You're a mom. You're a primary caretaker of your you have been the primary caretaker of your two children, two and four years old.

[00:07:56] And dad, you guys are married, you're going through divorce and dad has been the primary breadwinner who's been out of the home 90 percent of the time. And you want, you know, you want 50 50 because Florida is a 50 50 state. But dad wants sole custody. You're going to. So you're fighting. You're fighting for 50 50. Dad's fighting for a full custody because dad doesn't want to have to pay you child support. And he knows that he'll have to pay child support because he's the breadwinner.

[00:08:26] And so and I'm not using gender roles, you know, you know, I'm just using them randomly. And so you want to you don't want to pay an attorney because you're in a 50 50 state and you know that Florida is a 50 50 state. You know that dad who's been hands off has a slim chance of getting sole custody.

[00:08:45] And so what you want is, you know, the opportunity to self-represent, keep costs down and still be able to advocate for yourself under the law. And yeah, that's a primary position to be in for pro se, because if so, when dad fights you for sole custody, he'll do things like, you know, delay in tactics with providing documents and information.

[00:09:13] So dad is intentionally prolonging the process. So that's where a lot of people will say, well, I don't know if I can do pro se. Well, you still can do pro se. There's some tips and tricks that I work with with people to help them move things along, even when the opposing party is doing things like that to intentionally drag out the case or to exhaust you mentally, physically and financially.

[00:09:33] So that's a primary case, primary position to be in to self-represent, because at the end of the day, if the case goes to trial, which it probably wouldn't because, you know, cases like that where judges know the likelihood of the outcome being the 50 50 judges will strong on the opposing party who does have the right to go to trial and continue to still fight for sole custody.

[00:09:56] Judges have a way of strong on the party that they know is being unreasonable or unfair and getting them to resolve the case amongst themselves. So that's the primary scenario for 50 50. If you know the law is on your side, if you there's no hidden money in a divorce that you're fighting for, there's no businesses that needs to be assessed.

[00:10:16] You're literally fighting over custody in a situation where the chances of the opposing party getting their idea of custody is slim because of the not just the law, but particularly because where you are. That's what judges tend to rule. That's the ideal situation for, you know, pro se. Yeah. And that's great. And so that's a community property state. Right, Tracy? I think there's there's nine or 10 of them in the United States. I'm in Texas. That's another one.

[00:10:42] Um, but most states are going to be that equitable distribution, which means kind of like everything's looked at on a case by case basis. But that's not really true either, because isn't it kind of a default 50 50? And then you have to I mean, not it's not written anywhere. But don't don't the courts kind of go, OK, well, generally 50 50, but it's not cut and dried. There's so many variables, some counties, even within the state of New York, there are some counties where judges are like, listen, I know this is an ED state,

[00:11:11] but I'm not going through all this work for a state that's worth $50,000. We're not going to, you know, all this headache for, you know, what we're talking about, $50,000 in assets. We're not going to do that. I'm going to just put it down the middle and make things easy, because at the end of the day, and this is one of the things I really focus on with people, is that the end of the day, when the court is involved, the court is going to do what's logical to it, not to the parties, not to the attorneys. The judge is going to do what's fair and what's convenient for them, for the most part.

[00:11:41] So and, you know, if splitting things 50 50 in an ED state makes sense to them, that's what they're going to do. So you can go downstate, though, and the judge will see a $50,000, you know, in assets and say, no, this is ED state. So we're going to do that. We're going to go through the motions and we're going to decide what's fair based on the rules and the laws of the state of New York. So it really depends. It depends on your judge. It depends on your location. It depends on your circumstances. But the one underlying general principle is that judges will do what's really convenient for their docket.

[00:12:10] They don't want to be inundated with cases that are just not worth their time and effort. Right, right. So thank you for that. So generally what I'm hearing you say is if the case is if there's limited assets, if it's very uncomplicated. In other words, there's not a whole bunch of other baby mama drama going on from past relationships. If there's no other kids that are already receiving child support from your spouse.

[00:12:36] If you're not already paying to another spouse like this can all confuse things right a lot very quickly. If there's if there's assets that you hold jointly, if there's a family business, all of this stuff adds to the complications of this. They can and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're just red herrings that the parties know that can throw things off. There's a lot of tactics that litigants use, especially when they're pro se, that litigants use and lawyers too, that will then just simply red herrings.

[00:13:05] So we know what those things you just mentioned can complicate things. But some of them are just things to throw out there just to delay the process, just to make negotiating a little bit more favorable. So these are the things that I really focus on with people. That's why every single case is, you know, it's unique. There's no, you know, overgeneralization of cases. The only overgeneralization is the judge's agenda. Right.

[00:13:32] And this is why if you can mediate it, I think, you know, speaking with somebody like you, knowing what you can ask for under the law in mediation, you know, there's the batna and the watna. What's your best alternative? What's your worst alternative? And that if you know what the courts are likely to do by working with somebody, Tracy in particular, who can kind of guide you and say, well, this is likely what you're going to hear from a judge.

[00:13:57] Then when you walk into mediation, you know, if I get anything better than that, I'm ahead of the game. If I get anything less than that, maybe this isn't the right choice for me to make here. In addition to that, because the one nuance, you know, in the services that I provide is, OK, this is what the judge is likely to do. And this is what the judge may not. You need to understand that getting to those likely results. Sometimes that is the work. That is the challenge.

[00:14:24] So my what I focus on is, hey, listen, this is what the judge is likely to do. But these are like I just mentioned, these are those red herrings that's going to throw the case off a little bit. If you hang in there longer enough, though, you will get this outcome. Because the problem I have with mediation is that a lot of people think that they're mediating, they're resolving things, they're negotiating, they're going to settle. They're not thinking the possibility of litigation. Those mediated agreements, they do get violated every single day. Right.

[00:14:54] So when you're negotiating in mediation, you need to keep in mind what happens if this does get violated. If you are forced to come back and actually seek enforcement, what is your judge likely to do then? What is that process going to look like for you? Right. Yes. And that's a good that is absolutely a good point, because you're right. The mediator has no power to hold the parties to that agreement. You you hold each other to that agreement.

[00:15:19] And then if one of you violates, then your next option sometimes is to return to mediation. I know a lot of mediators put that clause in and try to work it out. That saves you a little money. But if the person's already violated once, but, you know, unless it was an oversight and they missed it. But if it's an oversight and they missed it, they probably try to make it up before you ever you know, there's a lot of things you got to think about. And that's where speaking to somebody really helps. Yeah, absolutely. So, Tracy, I love this.

[00:15:47] What about maybe some of the cautionary signs that you really need more more support? Like you need to speak to a family court strategist like yourself to understand the nuances of family court. And like you say, what you can and can't expect, what strategies you need to use to be able to show that. What are some of the yellow flags that you might see for if you're talking to a potential client?

[00:16:12] One of the things I'm always asking people when I'm screening them and vetting them because I do that. I don't work with just everybody is I always get an idea. I want to get a sense of what their expectations are. Right. Because a lot of people, believe it or not, their expectations are just insurmountable. There's just no way. And so when they when I start to, you know, get that information and I vet them for that, a lot of times people will tell me their expectations is really, you know, they're really firm on them.

[00:16:39] They expect 50-50, they expect so, they expect this, they expect that, they expect to not spend any more money. They expect the judge to rule in their favor. They expect the judge to be. And it's and the more they go into detail about what they expect, the more I'm wondering, you know, I'm questioning, you know, if the what they're going through, the level of conflict that they're going through currently hasn't been as a result of their unreasonable expectation.

[00:17:05] And so one thing I'm always encouraging people is to not be so set on the specific outcome, but the life that you want to create the life you want to see when this is all over. That's much more important. So it may not look like you haven't sold custody. It may look like you have a 50-50, but you still get to maximize the time that you have your children and you get to do travel without restriction and, you know, enroll them in activities without restriction. It looks more like that.

[00:17:33] So it feels like you still have full custody. And so the ones who are not open to see that, instantly I'm like, oh, well, I don't know. This may not be a great fit. The ones also have, who are right at the height of their PTSD or who are right at the height of them recovering from any sort of abuse, I don't think that they should be working with me entirely. And I don't think they should be working with any type of attorney.

[00:18:00] I think that the attorney really need to, if they're going to work with an attorney, they really need to vet the attorney to make sure the attorney understands those non-legal needs. A lot of the cases that attorneys take with any sort of abuse involved, where their client is at the height of it, dealing with the ramifications, the consequences, a lot of the problems come from the disconnect and the lack of trust and the, you know, them being always in fight or flight mode.

[00:18:29] And so some of that can be sort of filtered out if you, if the client or the litigant decided to work with an attorney who understands that. And whether the attorney is equipped to deal with that, at least they understand that so that the way that they communicate, the way that they respond, the timing, all of that is centered around the fact that they're dealing with these issues. I think that's incredible. But I don't work with people. I will say to them, Hey, I think you need to get with one. You need to be in therapy too.

[00:18:58] If you can find a coach, but you definitely need to be working with an attorney right now. Maybe later on, when you get to that point where you're starting to feel comfortable, your nervous system has started to, you know, calibrate. Then maybe I can work with me. But right now, I don't think, I think you're going to do more harm than good. If you decide the other thing is that when there's really complex issues involved, that can easily run up into the six figures.

[00:19:23] I often suggest to people that they, before they run into the six figures, that they take some time to figure out non-legal ways to address some of the complex issues they're going to. There are other alternatives that have nothing to do with court. There are other ways to get information. There are other ways to assess businesses. There's other ways to get some of the information you need that you're going to use in court.

[00:19:48] But that, that, you know, and when that's the case, I don't necessarily think that working, the flip side of that is, I don't think that necessarily working pro se or working with an attorney who's not going to, you know, have their best interest in heart is going to be the best path for them to take. So, you know, various scenarios that I've just put out there just to give you an idea of how I discern who should be working with me as pro se, who should be working with me, you know, if they have an attorney and who should definitely just have an attorney.

[00:20:19] I can help them find the best attorneys. But that's where I, you know, I aim my services with them. Yeah. And I think that's important for people listening to understand because, you know, if you go into any kind of professional, I recently just completed a whole bunch of my, so I'm trained in high conflict divorce coaching. I'm also trained in relational trauma coaching.

[00:20:41] So we work through this C coaching, not therapy, but coaching through the complex PTSD and the PTSD and the narcissistic recovery and all that stuff. And I think that, you know, I'm starting to see a lot more attorneys that when they hear that now, they're saying, I know a divorce coach who specializes in this. And so I don't touch legal stuff. I just really help the client work through this. And I so appreciate what you're saying, because I think that's number one rule.

[00:21:07] If you're talking to an attorney or a strategist or anybody who says, oh, yeah, I work with everybody. Ask them specifically, what training do you have dealing with people who are coming out of complex relationships and trauma? And if they can't give you a specific training they've done, then you have to evaluate whether you really want to work with that person. That is so important. So we, I can't believe how fast these conversations go. And you are such a wealth of information.

[00:21:35] So, Tracy, let me ask you this one. What, who are the people that you say, what are the big red X's? Don't ever try to do pro se. What, what group of people would you say, or is there a group of people that you would recommend? Number one, women who are, women specifically, who are coming out of highly abusive relationships. They should never be pro se. People who are, English is not their first language. They should seldom be pro se.

[00:22:04] And the people who have those issues where there's hidden assets, I'm talking about high stakes assets. Businesses, I'm talking about, you know, high value businesses. Any situation where there's high net worth involved, I don't think that's ideal for anybody to be pro se. Those are the three things that I'm like, hey, wait a minute. No, I think you need to find an attorney. I'll help you find an attorney. If you need an attorney, if you want me to supplement, then sure, I'll do that. But those three scenarios, absolutely not.

[00:22:34] They should not be pro se, especially in high conflict divorce. So, Tracy, let's just take, and I know, you know, we've got a few minutes here, so I don't want to rush you. Tell us briefly about the services that you offer, because you've mentioned several. And I just want people to get an understanding. We're going to give them your, the link to your website so they can go check out all the details. But just kind of an overview of what kind of services do you offer for clients? So, I do one-on-ones.

[00:23:00] I work with people one-on-one because I like to work with them based on who they are, what they have, and what their concerns are, and what they're dealing with. And when I mean what they're dealing with, it's not just the opposing party. That's actually a fraction of their concerns. It's the opposing counsel. It's the attorneys they're working with or have worked with. It's the judge, and it's all the other key players. So, I work with them one-on-one either by the hour or by packages, either monthly, three months, or 12 months. But we work together closely on strategy.

[00:23:29] So, all those issues, all those gaps, we're filling those. We're working, I mean, down to, hey, let me tell you how to speak when you go to the courtroom. Let me show you the demeanor you should have. So, I'm working with them closely, one-on-one, regularly. I'm doing my, I have a team where we do research. We do some role-playing. We do some, they have access to my platform where I have videos and worksheets and all that stuff.

[00:23:52] So, I work with them specifically to position their case so that when they're in court, whether they're pro se or not, that they are actually understanding exactly what the issues are, the key issues for their judge. They're understanding exactly what their options are and which ones they should choose based on their overall goals. And number three, they're actually working to resolve the case in a way that's going to be satisfactory to their overall principles,

[00:24:18] their general principles as they're, you know, as they set for themselves. And so, yes, that's what I do. So, hourly or by the month, three months, or 12 months. But we're working closely, one-on-one. And I think this is so valuable. And I think I want to, I want to stress that as a divorce coach, I kind of help people get their ducks in a row to interview attorneys. But what Tracy does is a huge in-depth approach to this.

[00:24:46] And let's face it, I've never been a family attorney. I've been a mediator for 30 years. I know a lot of family attorneys. I've sat for hours and listened to them discuss these kind of things. But that's not the same as having an actual attorney who has practiced in the family court system guide you through this step-by-step. So, Tracy, I so appreciate what you do and the services you provide for people. We're almost out of time.

[00:25:10] But I want to ask you, what is your one piece of advice you would like to give for anybody listening to this podcast? The one thing I want to, I always emphasize to people is no matter which stage or phase you're in, especially in high conflict, just because you could do something doesn't mean you should. And that's the overall mission of what I provide is for you to understand that every decision you make needs to be informed.

[00:25:40] You need to be making those decisions based on having the accurate and appropriate information for you. Not for somebody else who's been in a situation like yours, but for you, for your current situation and your future. And so that's important to know. Just because you could doesn't mean you should. Let's focus on finding out what the best route is for you and your journey, whether that be per se or something in between or a lawyer represented. Yeah. Great, great piece of advice.

[00:26:07] Tracy, if people want to find out more about what you do or even reach out to work with you, what's the best way to do that? They can feel free to visit my website. It's at www.thedivorcesolutionist.com. They can listen to my podcast, Self-Representant and Family Court. Or they can simply email me at Tracy at thedivorcesolutionist.com, which I'm open, definitely open to. Wednesdays, every Wednesday, I do open Wednesday up from 10 to 4 Eastern Standard Time to you calling me.

[00:26:36] You will get me on the phone and talk to me for 15 minutes on a Wednesday at 862-800-7850. And if you're in North New Jersey, you can visit me because I'm doing those in person at a coffee shop around North New Jersey. One every single Wednesday until the end of August. So, yes. That is so cool. I love that. And I'm going to make sure all of that gets listed, including your podcast, your phone number to reach out to talk to you. Tracy, thank you so much for all that you've shared here today.

[00:27:06] This has been really enlightening. I've learned a lot. I know everybody else listening has learned a lot, too. And I really appreciate, like I say, you coming on here and sharing this with us. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure, as usual. And thank you, everyone, for listening in to this episode of The D-Shift. And don't forget to tune in to the next one. Thanks for listening and supporting The D-Shift Podcast.

[00:27:31] If you would like to attend live trainings by our amazing guests and have a chance to ask questions and get answers from our experts, join The D-Shift Crew. For more details and to sign up, head on over to www.divorcecoachforwomen and click on the podcast page.