High Conflict Divorce Isn't About Conflict: It's About Control

[00:00:04] Welcome to the D Shift Podcast, where we provide inspiration, motivation and education to help you transition from the challenges of divorce to discover the freedom and ability to live life on your own terms. Are you ready? Let's get this shift started. Hello and welcome to this episode of the D Shift Podcast. And I am so happy to have a fellow High Conflict Divorce Specialist on the call today.

[00:00:33] Ksenia Minch is a High Conflict Divorce Strategist. She has an MBA. She has her own podcast that I have, was invited and had the honor of being on called The Uncoupled and Unfiltered Podcast. And Ksenia is also the creator of the High Conflict Playbook. And we want to make sure we get a chance to talk about that. And it is a structured framework for women who refuse to be intimidated by their ex.

[00:01:01] And like myself, Ksenia is not an attorney or a therapist or a divorce coach who is going to be your best friend throughout your divorce. I know her approach is like mine. We are more strategic and more focused on helping you deal with the reality of going through a high conflict divorce, which is very different than going through a typical divorce. Let's put it that way. So Ksenia, welcome.

[00:01:29] Thank you so much, Mardi, for having me here. I'm so excited for this conversation. Well, I am too, because the last one we had was really, I thought it was really effective because both of us have such a not similar but not dissimilar approach to handling this. So I always like to start out, Ksenia, by asking people what got you into this area of focus? Because I know you didn't grow up as a little girl going, I hope I get to be a high conflict divorce strategist when I get a little older.

[00:01:59] I always joke, I got inspired by my own divorce. I just like the inspiration keeps landing on my lap. And I'm like, well, since I have that, I might as well use that information and try to help others navigate this. It's minefield. It's truly high conflict divorces, such a different beast. And it's a minefield. And if you do not know where to step, you will blow up. And I did many times.

[00:02:23] So hence, I ended up getting into this field so I can outline the mistakes that you can make, how to avoid them and how to learn to play the high conflict game. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because I was sitting here thinking about this the other day. I almost think that high conflict divorce is a bad term because to me, when I hear the term high conflict, I think of two people that are choosing not to like in mediation. We'll say high conflict mediations, whether it's family or civil or whatever.

[00:02:52] And that typically means two parties that are very unreasonable. But in a divorce with a toxic person, it's typically one person who would just like to get the process over and is very willing to be reasonable. And one person who is just completely irrational and will refuse to agree to anything. Would you would you agree to that? Yes, I actually just I said, listen, I always think high conflict is a code word for abuse.

[00:03:19] Yeah. So if it's a high conflict marriage, it means it was an abusive marriage. It's not that the party who is being victimized does get reactive. So that can make the conflict worse. But high conflict divorce, I see it as a post separation abuse. There is a party that always creates drama and chaos because they want to stay in control. They want to stay engaged. They want to keep the party engaged with them.

[00:03:45] And the more reaction they get out of them, the more satisfaction they get. So it's really messed up way looking at this process. But it's a stage for them to continue victimizing the partner and the partner. If they don't know that that's the goal, the goal is not to get divorced. The goal is to continue showing control. The goal is continue to manipulate, whether it's through kids, through the legal system. They get triggered. They react.

[00:04:14] And that's how it's called high conflict, because the conflict starts escalating in court because the other party is like just kind of spinning and responding to pokes. Right, right. And this is where, you know, I've had several people come and talk about this. And I know that you believe this as well. This is where the legal, the family court system really enables this kind of abuse through legal abuse through the divorce.

[00:04:39] And then, oh, my God, don't even get me started on the post-divorce litigation processes and the costs. Like if you're going through a high conflict, high conflict divorce and you have children, it's very unlikely that divorce is the last time you're going to see the inside of a courtroom. It's probably going to be ongoing. And even if you get a really decent mediated settlement, these people will come back over and over and over again looking for loopholes in that in that mediated settlement agreement too.

[00:05:08] You're absolutely right, because at the end of the day, it's they're looking for ways to continue to engage. If you put boundaries in place and you do the gray rock method, which means you are no communication. You're trying to become as boring as a gray rock and no reaction. They will still file motions, whether they have merits, whether no merits, whether it's

[00:05:32] something financial, whether it's something custodial, just because our family law system allows the filing and there are no consequences. There is no accountability because usually the settlement happens like a week before the hearing. And then you're like, okay, I just spent thousands of dollars on responding to the lawsuit because I was drugged into the court again. It's just it's a tactic. It's financial abuse because they're draining.

[00:06:01] They're draining your your money, basically your savings. And it's also emotional abuse because being in the court system, whether you care about the outcome or not, it's so stressful. It's like always like a rain cloud over your head until you're out of the court system again. Right. And it takes up, you know, it takes up your time, your money. It can affect your job. It can affect your relationship with your kids because obviously typically there's well, not all the time, but typically there's a lot of manipulation of the children involved in these relationships.

[00:06:31] And so, you know, when the kids go to the other parents home, they're going to be here, the toxic parents home, they're going to be hearing how all this lawsuit is all your fault. And why doesn't parent A stop dragging me into court when in fact it's it's parent B that's filing the motions and doing all this stuff? So, well, you know, I wanted to add something here because one of my clients, I was working with her and she said so she was dragged into court on post judgment matter.

[00:06:58] Uh, her ex-husband filed some, some motion on finances. That ex-husband, when the kids came to his house, put the kids like for a family meeting and he presented spreadsheets to show why he's filing, why it's mother's fault, because if not for her, he wouldn't be broken. And look, if she did finances better, he wouldn't have filed it. And so when I was listening, it's one of those stories you can't make things up because you're

[00:07:26] like, wow, ratchet, just to show how justified they are in abusing. So the kids are getting on their side. Yeah. And I was just talking to a judge. It's really interesting. So I, I have, this happened twice last week. I attended a presentation by a judge, like a zoom, um, you know, webinar thing. And she was talking about this. And then I actually spoke to a judge in an unrelated matter, um, just for some volunteer work I was doing with the court.

[00:07:55] And this judge in a local court, in a local district here also said the same thing that they are seeing a huge uptick in, um, civil, which family court falls under that, um, in civil motions that are all pro se. And it's, it's these people, you know, and sometimes people say, well, I don't have to worry about that because my ex isn't going to have any money after divorce. Well, you know what? You can file a motion for like 150 bucks. It doesn't cost much.

[00:08:24] And they, they become legal experts. They, well, they think they are, they get online, they, you know, use chat GPT to create these weird motions and then they present them to the court and the courts will happily take their filing fee and then you have to respond. And that's the, that's the tragedy. But I know that we talked a little bit before we got on the podcast about really sharing with women in particular who are in the early stages or of these, um, high conflict divorces and they know they're divorcing a toxic person.

[00:08:54] What are some of the common mistakes that you see? Because I'm sure, and I'm going to throw in some of the ones that I see, because I think we probably see a lot of the same things. Yeah. Well, one is, um, thinking that the ex will not do things that, uh, like the worst case scenario. And I think when you're in a high conflict divorce, that mentality will hurt you in the long run because whatever you think he's not going to do, that's exactly what he's going to do. You always have to be prepared.

[00:09:23] So you're not reactive and you're strategically responding rather than, oh my gosh, I did not see that one coming. You have to anticipate the worst behaviors that can come up in court. That's mistake. Number one, another one is blindly trusting attorney, whatever they say goes, you need to understand, like, uh, we, we touched upon it a little bit attorneys. You have to be very discerning with their advice.

[00:09:51] Just like in dating, if you're discerning who you date with attorneys, whatever they say, you have to think if it aligns with the direction you want to go, the outcome you want to achieve. And also if it matches the dynamic that you're going through, attorney only knows what they know. And they stay within the legal lane. You are the one who is in this dynamic and you have to advocate for yourself. So if something doesn't side, uh, doesn't sound right, that it was coming from attorney

[00:10:21] as an advice, don't take it. Say, no, thank you. I'm okay. Do what feels right to you. They're there to outline the legal options. It's up to you to take them, whether they recommend or not. Again, they cannot make a decision for you. You have to decide. So those are the two big mistakes that I'm seeing. Yes. And thank you for saying that because I believe I see those a lot. The other one that I see, and it kind of ties in with your first one is just assuming

[00:10:47] that because you're now maybe physically separated, not living in the same house, that number one, your partner is going to suddenly become rational and reasonable and will look at for a fair settlement. These people don't want a fair settlement. Tell us a little bit about your perspective on that. They don't want settlement. They want to win.

[00:11:13] And the win in their mind is destroy you because you need to be punished for basically exposing them. When you're in high conflict dynamic and you leave an abuser, they're exposed because now you have a voice and all the dirty laundry in court starts coming up. So they are there to punish you. So it's not about fair settlement. It's about to wipe you out, basically. That's what it is, right?

[00:11:42] And sometimes in mediation, if they are a grandiose narcissist or even a covert narcissist that doesn't want anybody to find out what's been going on in the family, sometimes you can leverage that and you can do that very nicely and say, look, let's come to an agreement here today. Let's agree that we are going to get this settled. And I have this document. I have this timeline. I have this evidence. It will.

[00:12:09] You're not you're not blackmailing them or anything. It's not on anything unethical or incorrect. You can say, look, I don't want this stuff to come up in court. If we go to court, my attorney is going to be presenting this information. I don't want to make you look bad. I don't want to look bad. I don't want to air our family dirty laundry here. Let's let's try to settle this reasonably. Sometimes that will work. Sometimes. But sometimes it will work.

[00:12:38] Well, you just said the most important thing, how to play the high conflict divorce. Right. Right. The game. It's about understanding the levers you can pull and when to pull them. So you really have to be very strategic. What makes them tick? They know what makes you tick. So you have to. It's like it's a balance. You have to balance your own emotions. You have to understand if they press a button, what are they anticipating?

[00:13:06] What do they want as an outcome to be of whatever they did? You need to know the levers and you have to be very full headed, you know, to make sure you pull those levers at the right time. Otherwise, it just becomes your you become almost like erratic in some behaviors and they enjoy it because they see you start spinning. So the levers is very, very powerful. But you're right. Sometimes they work.

[00:13:35] Sometimes they're not. They don't work. So you just have to be mindful and keep trying. Yes. And I really think that that whole thing of trying to get you to look like the irrational person, because remember, one of the we've talked about the whole flying monkeys thing, you know, that's kind of a common term where these high conflict people convince everyone around them that there's something wrong with you. And they've they've quite often started this smear campaign like months or years ago.

[00:14:05] And you may not even be aware that it's been going on in the background. And then you go through the divorce and everybody always thinks already thinks you've got mental health problems. You're depressed. You're you're on some kind of drug addicted or alcohol dependent lifestyle or there's something defective about you. And all of these these people have been totally influenced by the the high conflict person, whether they're a narcissist, borderline antisocial, whatever they may be. They have completely convinced these people.

[00:14:35] And so rumors get out in the community and you feel even worse during the divorce. And that's all part of the game plan. Yes, because they they want you to doubt your reality. You already doubted your reality when you were living with them. Right. You're a gas lit every day. You're you're like a folk. You're blamed for everything. If you didn't do acts, why wouldn't happen? Like if you need to learn to behave or you're too sensitive, like your reality is truly turned upside down.

[00:15:03] And when you go through court, you continue acting this way. And they are putting the different narrative or spin on the actual history. Yeah. It makes you look completely crazy sometimes. And especially if you keep responding to whatever they put out there. So like I think one way to not spin and not to look crazy, you really have to work very

[00:15:30] hard not to be triggered and not to respond. Like you almost have to have a poker face and be like, nope, not getting to me. Right. What about the mistake of what about the mistake of believing the the what do they call it? Hoovering or bread crumbing where they're trying to bring you back into that honeymoon phase or that love bombing. What? Yeah. What do you see?

[00:15:59] How do you advise your clients on that one? You have to be very careful. Well, at first, it's a trap because either they're between the partners. So they continue to need some sort of supply or they're trying to disarm you. So when it was happening to me personally, I remember I was getting creeped out when my ex has been becomes really nice to me. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, something's brewing. He's trying to be nice. He's trying for me to drop the guard. So he delivers the next blow.

[00:16:29] And that's when it's going to hurt. And that's when I'm going to respond, because I thought we have gotten on like a good page and we can move on with co-parenting. So you have to be, again, not responsive. Be the gray rock. Regardless, whether it's a smear campaign, they, you know, they dump things on you and they just smear your name or they say, oh, my gosh, babe, I still love you. You're the best thing that ever happened. No response.

[00:16:57] No response is needed unless the question is asked. So I always say, if no question that not a rhetorical question that actually requires a response. Don't engage. Don't engage. Yeah. What about this one, too? Tell me if this sounds familiar. All of a sudden, they have found the love of their life, their soulmate, their perfect person, and they are just so happy to be rid of you. And all of a sudden now they're, you know, everything, their social media, everything.

[00:17:27] They accidentally text you pictures of, you know, them and the new partner in some intimate setting or something like that. What is that technique? And do you see that often with your clients? Oh, all of the time. All the time. I call it a circus. And I say, I don't even like going to circus, but unfortunately I have, I have a front row seat. And the way I work with my clients, I always say, listen, if they were truly this happy,

[00:17:55] they would not try to put on a show. When you're perfectly happy, the happiness and the intimacy is very quiet. It doesn't need to be shown to everybody. It doesn't need to be on display. And usually the display, I call it a petting zoo and my clients know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like always handsy. It's all the kissy kissy. It's all like the hugs, but it's the show for you. So I'm saying she is uncomfortable.

[00:18:23] She's trying to establish the place that he's claiming she now has, right? She replaced you and she's the best thing that ever happened to him. But he puts her in a competition with you because he's trying to show you that he moved on. But the fact that he now two of them are trying to prove to you how happy they are. So you have to understand how much power you actually have over them and their relationship. They just surrender the power to you.

[00:18:51] So once you kind of flip the narrative, people usually walk away. It's like with the light, but it's like, oh my gosh, I am in control here and not them. So it's rewiring the brain setting a little bit here. Yeah, great shift there. Now, Ksenia, you work with your clients using a specific framework. Tell us a little bit about the framework and why it is so effective in guiding women through these high conflict divorce situations.

[00:19:19] So the framework was my light bulb moment because I was sitting and I've always talked about like some specific things about like the co-parenting, what you need to put in there or parallel parenting, the boundaries you need to establish, how you talk to them. And one day I'm like, it just needs to be A to Z. And that's why I called it high conflict playbook. So it's basically the framework that consists of eight pillars. And what we cover is how to get yourself grounded to even understand and start thinking strategically,

[00:19:48] understanding the signs of high conflict, how to prepare for court hearings, how to be a better parent to your children. That's a big one because when you're in high conflict, you can ruin relationship with the children and how not to do it. We talk about how to build an effective team, how to rebuild yourself after you've been through a ringer. And the final thing, I think one of the most important that I know was a surprise to me,

[00:20:15] it's prepare for life after the divorce is over. But what I mean by that, as we talk, there will be post-judgment motions. You have to be ready for those. How do you financially prepare? How do you mentally prepare for those? How do you rebuild your life knowing that the ex may be stalking you? They want to destroy your dating life. They use kids sometimes as spies.

[00:20:38] You have to be, unfortunately, very well trained on how to build your life after knowing all the factors of high conflict divorce. They don't just dissipate when divorce is signed. So again, it's a woman who thinks clearly, who is one to two steps ahead of her ex, who is trying to intimidate them. And you're just saying, no, thank you. I understand how to play this game. And I know the rules. Yes.

[00:21:08] So that's the high conflict playbook. And you've actually offered some resources for our listeners. Can you just tell us a little bit about those? And I will make sure the link is in the show notes for everybody. Of course. Well, one is five communications. It's like very simple responses that are court safe. So a lot of times when we respond, you need to assume whatever you send in the message will end up in court as evidence. So you have to be very neutral, how to properly respond, how to prepare for the court.

[00:21:38] The same again, how you show up in court, the questions to ask or not to ask, how to behave there, how to be with children. So I included all of those resources. It's like very quick printout and whatever you need on the day off, how to understand how you're feeling and ground yourself. It's all there. So if you ever feel like spinning and you can't reach your friend, just read those and it will give you peace of mind also that you're not crazy.

[00:22:08] What you're going through is real. It's hard and you're not alone. Yeah, absolutely great resource. Thank you so much for your very generous gift. I know that people will be grabbing those because it's always helpful to have that. And you also have a podcast. Just tell us real quick about your podcast. Well, yes, my podcast is uncoupled and unfiltered. And we talk about everything there. We talk about high conflict divorce a lot. We talk about the narcissistic abuse.

[00:22:37] We also talk about the dating because dating is inadvertently coming after divorce. So we talk about the red green flags. And I talk with incredible experts like you. We had a great conversation. I talk with financial experts, dating coaches, relationship coaches, anything you need. In terms of resources, understanding the dynamic during and after divorce is all there. Wonderful. Wonderful. Of everything you shared.

[00:23:05] And again, I always love these conversations. We need to have coffee once a month and just sit and chat and record it. I know, right? It sounds easy. It's like, hey, coffee with Marty and Senia. What is the one piece of advice you'd like to leave anybody who is going through, let's say, in the early stages of a high conflict divorce or anything that we've talked about today? What do you want to share? Stick out for help early. That's one. For support.

[00:23:34] But the biggest thing, the big advice, remember you're in the driver's seat and you're the one who is hiring the team. Don't give the control power over to your attorney. Attorney is just one of your team members. You're the one in control. You're the one who is designing the next chapter of your life. You hire and fire people accordingly. And that's the biggest thing. Great message. Thank you so much.

[00:24:02] And if people want to find out more about what you do, Senia, and reach out or work with you, what's the best way to do that? Well, they can always go to my website, which is thriveagandivorcecoaching.com. I have the email, so you just submit a message. I will always personally respond. I read everything. I have Instagram, the same handle, thriveagandivorcecoaching. You DM me. I read all the messages. And highconflictplaybook.com. So if you want to know more about the framework, if you want to download more resources,

[00:24:31] I upload resources there more frequently, it's all there. You can also, I do the live intensive, group intensive, which is an eight-week course. So you can sign up for that there where we go through all the pillars. And we just create strategy that is applicable to your situation. And you can always find my podcast on Couple of Months Filtered on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or YouTube. Great. Great.

[00:24:57] And I will make sure all that information gets in the show notes because these resources are invaluable. And, you know, get on, get around, listen, grab resources, do whatever you need to do. Because, again, it's all going to help you in the long run. And, like Ksenia said, you have the power of creating your own divorce team. And one coach or strategist that works for one person is not going to work for another person. So take your time, look around, and find a person that works for you.

[00:25:26] So, Ksenia, again, thank you so much for being on the show today. I so enjoy our conversations. Marty, thank you so much for having me. I always have fun talking about high-conflict dynamics. I mean, why not? I know, we're weird that way. Thank you so much. And thank you, everybody, for listening in to this episode of The D Shift. And don't forget to tune in again to the next one. Thanks for listening and supporting The D-Shift Podcast.

[00:25:53] If you would like to attend live trainings by our amazing guests and have a chance to ask questions and get answers from our experts, join The D-Shift Crew. For more details and to sign up, head on over to www.divorcecoachforwomen and click on the podcast page.