Behind the Spotlight: Escaping an Abusive Marriage and Finding Freedom

[00:00:01] Hello and welcome to this episode of the D Shift Podcast. And I very rarely get to interview somebody who is, I'm going to say, a star. And I do have somebody on today. I want to introduce you to Mardi Winder. She is a singer, a songwriter. She's been a teacher, she's an author, and she has over four decades of experience. And this is why I'm a little star struck and can't talk today.

[00:00:30] She has performed with acts such as Pink Floyd, Pat Benatar, Sting, and a whole host of others. And Matan is here today to talk to us about this whole idea of the challenges of dealing with a difficult marriage, a toxic marriage, an abusive marriage, and how getting out of this is sometimes the most freeing experience you can have. So, Matan, welcome.

[00:00:57] Thank you so much. Happy to be here. And thank you for the lovely introduction. No, I am. You know, I was looking at things and I'm going like, oh my God, I remember Pat Benatar. I love Pat Benatar. She was great. Doing a lot of Pat Benatar music. So tell us a little bit about your background, if you wouldn't mind, and kind of why you got to this point of supporting women or people coming out of these horribly, horribly toxic and abusive relationships.

[00:01:28] Well, just very, very quickly give you some background info. I was born in Japan. My mother was Japanese. My father was American military. I'm a post-World War II baby. So, you know, I'm coming up on 70 years old next month, which is crazy.

[00:01:46] But, but, but, but the reason I'm giving you that little bit of information is because, you know, my mother came from a generation of women that, and a culture that raised women to be very subservient and sort of play the back burner role in relationships.

[00:02:10] So, and then my father who was American, European descent. Unfortunately, later in life, he became a raging alcoholic, a womanizer, a gambler. And that, you know, really set up certain kinds of emotional and mental. Sampling and modeling. Sample and model examples and modeling for me as a child.

[00:02:36] Sample and model. So given that, as sort of a brief background, I really believe that our childhood influences the way they're raised, the examples that we've grown up with in relationships affect the people that we choose down the road. And, you know, conscious or unconscious, but it does tend to happen unless you're lucky

[00:03:05] enough to kind of realize these things early on and maybe get some help and, you know, change your life before you get involved with someone that is not healthy. Right. And I was going to say, I think, you know, this is the thing that I, because I work with a lot of women who are getting out of these relationships. And one of the things I always

[00:03:31] tell people is we, we don't, we don't go out and say, Hey, I'd really like to date a narcissist today. And we go out and look for one, right? What happens is they become a, they are a familiar presence. So when we encounter them we know who they are. And some of the new research that's coming out says it's, it's not that narcissists necessarily focus on people who have had a

[00:03:57] challenging relationship with a parent. It's just that when they pull some of their crap, for lack of a better word, people that haven't had that experience will have those boundaries and go, nope, that's it. I'm done with you. Whereas people that have been in a relationship where they've seen maybe, um, a mother, um, be a little bit, like you said, a little bit more subservient or try to

[00:04:22] smooth the situation over that they then also go, I can fix that. I can deal with this. I, I got ways to handle it. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's our imprinting, you know? And so subconsciously, you know, unfortunately we, we tend, if we have that kind of background, we tend to pick people that help us to repeat those relationships in order to either fulfill something or repair something,

[00:04:53] um, subconsciously. And, uh, yeah, unfortunately we do tend to repeat these things unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to break the chain, which I did, you know, many years ago, but. Right, right. So can, and you never have to answer anything that I ask you. Okay. Cause I don't ever want anybody to feel uncomfortable after growing up in that household, you then went on and you married,

[00:05:19] uh, and you were very successful, right? I mean, you, I'm sure you were touring, you're doing all this stuff. And I really think your story is so relevant because a lot of times people think, oh, this only happens to a certain type of person. Well, you know, whatever they, whatever that stereotype is they're thinking of, but there's lots of very highly successful individuals that are dealing with these challenges, these horrific situations in their family life. Can you talk, I don't want to put you on the spot, but would you be comfortable talking about what,

[00:05:49] how that, how can that happen? I guess from. I, yeah, it's, it seems like it wouldn't be possible to have those two things happening in your life at the same time. Um, but you know, we human beings are very complex. We have a lot of different layers to who we are. And yes, when, when I was in my twenties and I was already touring. And in fact, when I met this person that I ended up marrying the first time,

[00:06:17] I was on tour with Pink Floyd. So I was on a year long tour, you know, traveling around the world, singing in front of hundreds of thousands of people with this amazing job and in an amazing situation, you know, being in, in five-star hotels and traveling on private jets. So that's what it looked like on the outside. But when I met this man, um, who was a very successful person in his

[00:06:46] own right, in a different industry, um, in the film industry, it, it was just a strange magnetic pull that I had getting into that relationship. And then once I was in that relationship and I realized what was happening. And initially, you know, initially it was a few little red flags here and

[00:07:12] there. And then it was emotional abuse, control, jealousy, things like that, that occurred. And then it evolved into physical abuse. Right. So, um, it's very weird. And, you know, to be clear about this, this is, you know, over 35 years ago for me. So it's a very different time in my life. And in fact,

[00:07:37] when I think about who I was at that point in life, uh, it's like, I was another person. Um, you know, so it's hard for me to, to relate to that person that I was now. Um, but yes, it was, it was very real and the dichotomy of my personal life. And then my professional life was so far apart.

[00:08:04] It was just, um, a very difficult emotional, um, you know, weight to carry, you know, when I'm, when I have this very public external lovely life, and then I'm dealing with, um, a lot of challenges personally behind closed doors. Yeah. Did you ever have the experience, um, of trying to talk to

[00:08:30] somebody about this and maybe them saying, Oh, you know, that's, you're making more of this than it needs to be. Or, or did you, when you talk to people, did they, did they hear you believe you and, and support you or, or did you kind of, how did that, how did that work? And I know we're going back a bit in time here. Yeah, it's okay. Cause I remember, I certainly remember everything. Um, you know, I had both things going on some people that, uh, and I didn't share it with a lot of people,

[00:08:58] you know, only a small circle of people in my life at that time, did I tell what was really going on, but a few people would be, well, maybe he's under a lot of stress and maybe, you know, things will change. And then I had my very close girlfriends that were saying, you need to get out of there, you know, and it took me a long time. It took me a long time to really come to terms with

[00:09:24] the fact that if I didn't get out, if I didn't leave, I might end up dead. Yeah. Cause it really got bad, you know? Well, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I really am. Um, I was a domestic violence client advocate for almost six years. I know, you know, I talked to women like that and that was quite often the question that got them to really think is what

[00:09:49] if the next time that, you know, that this happens, it's a fatal, it's a fatal push into a wall and you hit your head or something happens, you know, what exactly. Yeah, exactly. It wouldn't take much, you know, I mean, it, it doesn't, you know, have to be someone with a gun that's going to shoot you. It's, it, it, like you said, it could be a push down into a wall or down a staircase or

[00:10:13] a punch in the face and just in the wrong way, you know, um, uh, it's terrible to think about that these things happen. Um, but it's real and it does happen. And I lived through some of that, you know, luckily for me, because I was traveling quite a bit at the time and he was also traveling with his work and we were married for six years, but, um, I would say maybe we spent half of that

[00:10:42] time actually together. Right. But, um, it, you know, it, it, it really had to, for me had to get to a place where I bottomed out. If you've ever heard that expression in, in AA programs, um, or in psychology, it's like when you've had enough and you realize that's it, this can't go on anymore, you know, then you have to make a change. And I, I did finally, thank goodness, you know,

[00:11:11] but it was, sorry, we've got a slight little delay here, I think, but it takes a tremendous amount of courage to leave these kinds of relationships because most people know that this is going to definitely escalate the behavior of the other person when you actually do leave, because now they're losing control and that's, that's their trigger point.

[00:11:38] Exactly. I mean, luckily I left Los Angeles and I came back to New York. Um, so there was a lot of space in between, but I did have to get a restraining order, um, and, uh, you know, take some legal measures, but I have to say, you know, I'm so grateful that I found the strength and the courage to get out of there because it was the best thing I could have done for myself and for my

[00:12:07] life and for my, my personal growth and recovery, you know, and that's not to say it was easy. You know, it was when I, when I left that situation and I came back to New York, I was literally in fetal position on the floor when I landed because it was so devastating and I was broken. I was a broken

[00:12:34] person emotionally at that point. And I had to start all over again with my life. And, um, and I know it's not easy. And I will say that probably for me, it was a little easier in the fact that I didn't have children with him, which I can only imagine how complicated that would be for women that have a, you know, have a family. Um, so it was a little easier for me to really cut

[00:13:01] the cord because it was just me and I needed, you know, to just get out. Um, yeah. Yeah. And how did you, so I, I, like I say, I so admire women and men that take that step to get out of these abusive relationships because there is that fear of what's going to happen now. And then on top of that, like you say, you have to rebuild your whole life. Like how did you,

[00:13:30] if you were coaching or guiding or advising or mentoring somebody who was going through this, kind of what, what strategy did you use to get out of that curled up on the bathroom floor and the fetal position, um, life? How did you, how did you take those next steps? Like what, what do you think is a, some of the motivational or inspirational things that you use to kind of

[00:13:55] keep your momentum going after you made that big change? Yeah. Well, you know, as I said, it, it, it, when you're in the throes of it, it's doesn't feel easy at all. And it's very challenging, but I will say that I, first thing that happened for me was I had a little bit of a spiritual evolution, uh, through, it's a long story. It's in my book, you know, all the details. Um,

[00:14:25] I know we're a little limited on time, so I won't go into the whole thing, but I, I definitely had a bit of a spiritual awakening and I realized that I had to take responsibility for where I was at, why I had gotten into that situation and get myself help. I got into individual

[00:14:50] therapy. I got into group therapy. I got into ACOA program meetings. I did everything I possibly could to heal my old wounds, my childhood trauma wounds and, and the present wounds in that moment.

[00:15:11] And I just pulled up my bootstraps and I said, I have got to take care of this and it's my responsibility. Um, so I'm, I'm grateful that I was able to do that. Um, and I had the means to do that, you know, the means to get therapy and, but, but that said, there are a lot of organizations, you know,

[00:15:37] to help women, to help people, uh, get, get therapy and the help that they may need in these, these moments, in these circumstances. But, you know, I, I had to, I realized at that time I had to get out of the victim mentality that I was in. I, and that's, you know, part of the reason why I,

[00:16:05] I subconsciously allowed myself to get into that situation to begin with, you know, and it was again, modeling that I witnessed from my mother and from my parents that, you know, allowed me to, to recreate that. And I think you just said something so beautifully that reaching out and getting help. It is so hard to change our, our programs that are running in our heads from inside

[00:16:35] our heads. We need somebody outside to help us work through that because, because if not, we just keep repeating the pattern over and over and over again. That's right. And I, and also I realized too, because I went through this, there's a lot of shame that comes with having been in an abusive relationship and getting out of an abusive relationship. You know, it's unfortunate, but

[00:17:01] there will be people that will have their judgments about, you know, oh, well, how could you have done that? And, you know, how did you get into that situation? And so getting over the shame, letting go of the shame is a big part of getting help. And it's really necessary and very important because the shame is just, it's another way to beat yourself up. And I really, I couldn't agree with you more.

[00:17:27] And I think that we're coming along in the world in a place where now people such as yourself or the lady down the street or the lady you made at the grocery store or whoever it may be are talking about this more. And I think once we normalize that this can happen every, every to every person, literally, you could just be at that vulnerable stage in your life and you could find somebody,

[00:17:56] you know, that kind of gloms onto you that is a narcissist or a psychopath or sociopath or whatever's going around, you know, or just a toxic person. And it shouldn't be, we shouldn't feel guilty about it. Especially if we've got out of it because we did the right thing. Yeah. Yes, exactly. I know. And you're so right. It can, it happens to all kinds of people on every

[00:18:21] demographic, you know, in every demographic group, rich, poor, middle-class, black, white, you know, whatever, you know, whatever your background is, it doesn't matter. It happens. And, and like you said, in, in more ways that we can possibly imagine. And thankfully, yes, there is more conversation about this now, which needs to happen. Right. It needs to happen. Yes. Yes.

[00:18:51] Michonne, you have just shared a whole bunch of information. And I, like I said, I am so, so honored that you are here talking about this because again, I think it's important for everyone, we've had lots of guests come on and talk about this. And I think it's so important for people to get out of the stereotype that there's a certain type of person that ends up in these kinds of relationships. Because like I say, that's not true. I've, I've worked with doctors and therapists

[00:19:19] and attorneys and other people who have been in these relationships. And, and a lot of times they've stayed in them because they're afraid of the backlash that's going to come out for them if they leave. And I think that's just horrible that that's, that's still an issue in 2026. That's still an issue. Yeah, I know it is. It's heartbreaking to hear that, you know, but I will say, and, and

[00:19:44] hopefully this is encouraging for anybody that is in the middle of a situation like this. Once you can get away, once you can really take charge of your, yourself and your own life and do the work to heal and get through it, you know, there, because there's no way around, you really have to go through doing the emotional and psychological work to heal yourself. There is

[00:20:13] happiness and there is, there are better relationships down the road. I'm happy to say I've been with my current husband for 30 years. Congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. And very happy. And, you know, but it took me really doing the work on myself so that I could make space for a better person to come in. Yeah. Yeah. Some, I always, I didn't create this saying, but you know that everybody comes into

[00:20:41] your life for a season or, and a reason. And, you know, there's learning that can come out of these relationships as well. Now you mentioned you had a book. Can you talk to us a little bit about your book? Give us the title and tell us a little bit about it. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Yes. My book is called Naked Out Loud. It's a, it's a memoir. So I do talk about my, my career history. So I give the

[00:21:06] overview of, of my life and in music. Also the beginnings of my life being born in Japan and then coming to America at four and a half years old, you know, because my father was American. And, but really the important part to me of the, the undercurrent, the thread of the story beneath all of that is what

[00:21:31] was going on for me emotionally, personally, my struggles, you know, internally underneath this glitzy little life that I had, including my marriage, my first marriage and how I, how I personally grew and evolved beyond all of those difficulties and to where I am now. Yeah. Well, that's definitely, that's definitely going to be on my book list and I'm going to,

[00:21:59] is it available on your website, Amazon? It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you know, it's a, it's a small publishing company that put it out. So they do a print on demand model. So you have to order it online, you know, to get it. So I'll make sure the link for the, for your book on Amazon is in the show notes. So if people want to find it, they can just click right on there and, and head right over there. Do you have a website or anything you want to give out? If people want to follow you, learn more about what you do?

[00:22:29] Yeah. Yeah. I'm, you know, it's my name, mardiwinder.com. So I have a website. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, you know, all the social media. You know, it's a necessary evil now. It is. It is. Are you on TikTok? Yeah, no, I cut myself off of TikTok because it was just too consuming. I couldn't do, I had to, I had to stop. Yeah. I was going to say, I bet you, you got reels and reels and reels.

[00:22:58] You could just create out of your stage shows and everything else. I know, I know it's, it's enough with Instagram and Facebook. So yeah. I imagine so. So listen, everyone, Machontaylor, thank you so much for being here and sharing this and for speaking about this really important topic. I know, I know that what you're saying, the right people are listening, the people that need to hear it are going to hear this message. So thank you so much for sharing that. I hope so. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. All right.

[00:23:27] And thank you everyone for listening to this episode of the D-Shift and don't forget to tune in to the next one. Thanks for listening and supporting the D-Shift podcast. If you would like to attend live trainings by our amazing guests and have a chance to ask questions and

[00:23:53] get answers from our experts, join the D-Shift crew. For more details and to sign up, head on over to www.divorcecoachforwomen and click on the podcast page.