The conversation traces Norman's transition from political lobbying through cancer treatment to hypnotherapy and discusses his views on healing, trauma, and personal change.
For the transcript and full story go to: https://www.drmanonbolliger.com/earthlings1
Highlights from today's episode include:
-
Sagan framed healing as courageously facing difficult emotions rather than escaping them, with supportive witnessing helping people feel and process what comes up. [10:36–12:11]
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Helena emphasized that community may be a key part of healing—creating space for people to express emotions without judgment. [17:35–18:35]
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Manon connected healing with meeting change flexibly, rather than resisting it, and receiving what emerges without judgment. [28:14–33:18]
Sagan Bolliger and Helena Zhu create sanctuary to support people in healing through love and their psychedelic sacrament, 5-MeO-DMT. They have been sharing 5-MeO-DMT in beautiful, inspiring, and connecting retreats and sound baths for five years. They have worked with hundreds of journeyers from community sound baths to deep dive retreats in their oceanfront sanctuary on the Canadian side of the Pacific Northwest.
Sagan has a background in psychology and philosophy from the University of Toronto and Helena is a social scientist who understands that our wellbeing is collective and environmental. At their organization, Earthlings Institute, they create experiences that celebrate and bring out the best of humanity. Their medicine 5-MeO-DMT helps journeyers feel and move their emotions and drop into the heart of their being and the universe. Their ceremonies build wombs that support humans to give birth to themselves.
Core purpose/passion: Every day, we create sanctuary where people can heal through radical love, belong deeply, journey bravely, live authentically, and bring the sacred to life.
We envision a world where our differences deepen our humanity rather than divides us, where we remember that we all belong.
We are passionate about living fully, working boldly, and adventuring wildly from rock climbing to scuba diving around the world.
Website Eartlings.Institute | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube |
ABOUT MANON BOLLIGER, RBHT, FCAH:
As a retired Naturopath 1992-2021, I saw an average of 150 patients per week and have helped people ranging from rural farmers in Nova Scotia to stressed out CEOs in Toronto to tri-athletes here in Vancouver.
My resolve to educate, empower and engage people to take charge of their own health is evident in my best-selling books: 'What Patients Don't Say if Doctors Don't Ask: The Mindful Patient-Doctor Relationship' and 'A Healer in Every Household: Simple Solutions for Stress'. and What if Your Body is Smarter than You Think? I am the Founder & CEO of The Bowen College Inc. which teaches BowenFirst™ Therapy and holds transformational workshops to achieve these goals.
So, when I share with you that LISTENing to Your body is a game changer in the healing process, I am speaking from expertise and direct experience".
Mission: A Healer in Every Household!
For more great information to go to her weekly blog: http://bowencollege.com/blog.
For tips on health & healing go to: https://www.drmanonbolliger.com/tips
Follow: Manon Bolliger website | Linktr.ee | Rumble | Gettr | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | Twitter | LinkedIn |
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ABOUT THE HEALERS CAFE:
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* De-Registered, revoked & retired naturopathic physician after 30 years of practice in healthcare. Now resourceful & resolved to share with you all the tools to take care of your health & vitality!
00:00:05
intro: Welcome to the Healers Cafe: Conversations on Health
00:00:08
and Healing at Manon Bolliger, a retired and deregistered
00:00:12
naturopathic physician with 30 plus years of experience. Here
00:00:18
you will discover engaging and informative conversations
00:00:21
between experienced healers, covering all aspects of healing,
00:00:27
the personal journey, the journey of the practitioner, and
00:00:31
the amazing possibilities for our own body and spirit.
00:00:41
Sagan: It's really.
00:00:44
Manon Bolliger: Go ahead.
00:00:45
Sagan: Yeah, it's really, really a pleasure to be on your
00:00:47
podcast, Mom. Really feels like an honor, and yeah, really happy
00:00:53
to be be be here with you.
00:00:56
Manon Bolliger: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And yes,
00:00:59
this is Very different to you know have both of you
00:01:05
participate in this podcast. So let me do a little bit more of a
00:01:11
of introduction. So this is first of all the Healers Cafe,
00:01:16
where we talk about different healing methods, what healing
00:01:23
is, our journey as practitioners, the obstacles,
00:01:28
and all the stuff that we need to confront and face in order to
00:01:34
do what we love and what we're here for. So I open, you know,
00:01:40
the discussion to be on just about any aspect because if you
00:01:46
love what you do, it's what you do probably a large percentage
00:01:50
of the time. So we'll we'll we'll open up with that. But I I
00:01:56
want to give a little bio background so people know who
00:02:00
you both are, so Sagan Bolliger is my son, so, and I think you
00:02:08
can tell which one's the man, and Helena Zhu, both together
00:02:14
created sanctu or create sanctuary to support people in
00:02:19
healing through love and their psychedelic sacrament, which is
00:02:26
five meodmt, and they've been sharing five meodnt in
00:02:33
beautiful, inspiring, and connecting connecting retreats
00:02:38
and sound baths for about five years. They have worked with
00:02:42
hundreds of journeyers from community sound baths to deep
00:02:46
dive retreats in their oceanfront sanctuary on the
00:02:50
Canadian side of the Pacific Northwest. Now, as far as a bit
00:02:55
of background, Sagan has a background in psychology and
00:02:59
philosophy from the University of Toronto, and Alina is a
00:03:03
social scientist who understands that our well-being is
00:03:07
collective and environmental. At their organization, Earthlings
00:03:12
Institute, they create experiences that celebrate and
00:03:17
bring out the best of humanity. Their medicine five meodmt helps
00:03:23
journeyers feel and move their emotions, and drop into the
00:03:29
heart of their being and the universe. And their ceremonies
00:03:36
literally build wombs that support humans to give birth to
00:03:42
none other than themselves, and so I'm really thrilled to be
00:03:50
interviewing you and having you share more about this. And yes,
00:03:56
I have had the absolute pleasure of doing this. Was it last year
00:04:02
or this year? I can't even tell time anymore. Yeah,
00:04:08
Sagan: I think it was. It was last year, right? Last year or
00:04:11
yeah, yeah, earlier this year. Yeah, or yeah, something like
00:04:15
that. Yeah, there you go.
00:04:17
Manon Bolliger: Time being rather insignificant compared
00:04:20
Compared to the experience, anyway. So, well, welcome both
00:04:24
of you, and maybe you could just start a little bit about what
00:04:30
brought you both to this journey, right? Like, why, you
00:04:36
know, why, why this, why, why now, Why? Why?
00:04:44
Sagan: Sure. Yeah. Happy to start there. You know, for me,
00:04:49
psychedelics, and that goes beyond just five meo DMT, but
00:04:52
five meo DMT is a really powerful example of those. Is a
00:04:58
class of medicines that I. Found to be really powerful, starting
00:05:01
in my 20s, for processing emotions, for really going into
00:05:06
the heart of what was difficult, what needed to really be fully
00:05:11
felt and witnessed, and really just to give myself space to to
00:05:16
be with those often difficult emotions. But you know, really,
00:05:21
the way I see it is when we go into what's difficult and we
00:05:24
allow ourselves to experience that range, it opens the door to
00:05:28
to experiencing the full range of emotions, including the joy,
00:05:32
including you know all the positive emotions. It's really
00:05:36
you know opening the floodgates to the full range of of life
00:05:40
experience,
00:05:43
Manon Bolliger: yeah, and and and you, Helena, what was it?
00:05:46
What got you interested in this process?
00:05:53
Helena Zhu: I first approached psychedelics because I was just
00:05:57
curious about what it can do for us, I was very naive about it. I
00:06:05
did not think that psychedelics would be too different from,
00:06:10
say, alcohol or marijuana or just other substances that
00:06:16
people try sometimes, not always, in their in their coming
00:06:21
of age, and I was not familiar with mushrooms. That was my
00:06:28
starting point when I met Sagan 10 years ago, and I shared with
00:06:35
him about my desires. He was by far the most experienced person
00:06:41
who has personally worked with mushrooms and self-guided
00:06:45
himself because he did not find any human resources available at
00:06:50
that time, and they were very powerful journeys. They they
00:06:56
brought on something for me that I just had never experienced
00:07:02
before, and the way that I was able to connect to nature and
00:07:07
connect to my own roots, and I'm saying that as like my roots as
00:07:13
a human being were in nature, that just not something I had
00:07:16
experienced before nor thought possible. As we continue to
00:07:23
benefit from these ourselves, and and then eventually choosing
00:07:29
to serve psychedelics as our career, then I had the privilege
00:07:34
of being introduced to a lot of other different medicines, and a
00:07:37
lot of them have served me personally very well at
00:07:41
different stages of our lives, so we specialize in five meo DMT
00:07:47
because it seems to work really well with us. But we're also now
00:07:53
in conversation about adding other medicines to our
00:07:59
immersions and retreats as well.
00:08:02
Manon Bolliger: Interesting. Well, I've got to just share
00:08:05
this because it's some of my patients know, or yeah, I can
00:08:10
still call them patients even though I'm not licensed anymore.
00:08:14
Just correction there in case there's eave droppers. But yeah,
00:08:20
for me, psychedelics had a huge impact as well, and I was quite
00:08:25
young because I was graduating what was grade 13 in, I guess,
00:08:31
the year I turned 14. So at that time, I was hanging out with
00:08:36
older kids, and you know, all of those drugs like well LSD
00:08:42
mushrooms oh I don't remember lots of options there were were
00:08:48
available and yeah I had this like curiosity and I I felt and
00:08:55
I've told you know many of my patients who sort of say well
00:08:59
where do you open your mind. How do you start? You know, seeing
00:09:07
that there's more than one way of looking at things, and I just
00:09:11
very spontaneously say, "Well, it's it's actually my
00:09:14
psychedelic experiences because
00:09:15
Helena Zhu: Wow
00:09:17
Manon Bolliger: I saw that you can see differently." Now, some
00:09:21
of them were unbelievably stupid, sea wing. Like I was
00:09:26
proud to write an A. You know, and it's like, how did I write
00:09:30
an A after eight hours? I don't know. You know, like there's
00:09:34
things that you know when you're past it and you look at it and
00:09:37
you go, but the sheer joy of creating that A is what life is
00:09:42
all about, you know. So there's also you you know I mean humans
00:09:48
create meaning out of everything, and certainly I'm no
00:09:52
different. But I find that that really helped. And then the next
00:09:57
question asked is how. Did you know you were not going to
00:10:01
become addicted? And because of course you know parents come you
00:10:08
know with great fear that oh my gosh I think I I you know my
00:10:14
kids are taking whatever it stinks so it said oh it probably
00:10:17
is marijuana it smells like skunk and I actually hate that
00:10:22
that composite, you know. So, but I mean, yeah. What do? How
00:10:28
do you? What do you feel about that? Like, who gets addicted,
00:10:33
and what's the risk there?
00:10:36
Sagan: You know, yeah, it's a it's a really good question, and
00:10:41
you know the way I see addiction is it's it's a short term way of
00:10:46
managing our pain, our our psychological pain. It's an
00:10:50
escape from whatever it is that's latent in our lives
00:10:55
that's causing a background level of anxiety or unsettling,
00:10:59
and we're trying to go for a brief period of time into
00:11:01
something else that feels, you know, more peaceful, and really,
00:11:09
you know, the way I see psychedelics is it's really kind
00:11:12
of going in the opposite direction. It's really
00:11:15
incredibly courageous act to go into what's most difficult, you
00:11:23
know, it's not an escape. At least the way that we relate to
00:11:27
it, and in ceremony and with intention, you know, the purpose
00:11:32
is really to go into what's the thing that we've been avoiding
00:11:36
in our lives, and fully confront and bring witnessing and bring
00:11:42
space to that. So, you know, yeah, yeah. I mean, we always
00:11:51
tell people it's it's so courageous to do this, right?
00:11:54
You know, it's not something people are inclined to do, you
00:11:58
know, habitually because each time, you know, you have to
00:12:01
build up that courage to to to face, you know, whatever it is
00:12:06
that's that's most most difficult in that moment.
00:12:11
Manon Bolliger: And I think you know you bring up a really
00:12:13
important point here too. You know, we're so used to the
00:12:18
pharmaceutical model of drug taking, whether it's for pain
00:12:24
relief or whatever. I know now they're experimenting, you know,
00:12:29
even in psychedelics, on a you know so-called real way. But
00:12:35
there's nothing real about it if you're not, I mean, okay,
00:12:43
there's an exception to what I'm saying, of course, because I'm
00:12:47
generalizing here. But to be witnessed is huge, whether it's
00:12:54
by your partner or by your higher self. I mean, I think you
00:13:00
know, obviously, Sagan, you you managed on your own to get
00:13:04
through and to be both the the one who was experiencing and the
00:13:09
witnesser of the experience. So it's not that it can't be done,
00:13:13
but that's a whole level. I mean, that's your whole
00:13:16
training. That's your personality. That's who you
00:13:19
know. There's lots of reasons why I can understand that you
00:13:22
could do that, but it's not a common thing. I think, you know,
00:13:26
in community, when you get to bring up what you actually feel
00:13:34
and are allowed to go through it, and you have witnesses, you
00:13:40
know, that are not judging you, just noticing with you. You
00:13:45
know, I think that that is it's so huge, and this is why so much
00:13:50
of this is it's not addictive. I think I agree it's courageous,
00:13:57
and I think we also misunderstand even with things
00:14:02
we call addictive, the the human desire to heal, you know, like
00:14:11
humans want to get better, yeah, you know, and sometimes they
00:14:15
choose things like it could be alcohol, because it decreases
00:14:19
their, you know, their what's the right word here? Their
00:14:23
inhibitions, yeah. You know, but you know it's maybe not as full
00:14:31
and thorough and conscious as, for example, you know what what
00:14:37
you guys are using the five MEO DMT, which. I mean, you you see
00:14:45
you see exactly what is. You know, there's no, you can't play
00:14:49
games with yourself about what is. It just is, you know.
00:14:54
Whereas alcohol, I think, yeah, you know, it connects so much
00:14:59
to. Memories and stories, and you you can really lose yourself
00:15:06
without ever getting to the point. You know,
00:15:09
Sagan: right? Yeah,
00:15:10
Manon Bolliger: I don't know if that makes sense to you. I can
00:15:13
certainly see that.
00:15:15
Sagan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I I think one of the
00:15:20
things, especially when we're talking about five meo DMT, is
00:15:23
that it's really yeah, it's not very storytelling. It's very
00:15:29
it's very direct and to the point, and it really gets us
00:15:33
into yeah, it really gets us into the core energy or emotion
00:15:38
that we've been holding that's been this blockage in our life,
00:15:43
and it's like okay, you know, 10 seconds. You know, it's a 10
00:15:46
second onset when you smoke it, so you're going from you know
00:15:50
your your baseline consciousness straight into the heart of the
00:15:53
matter, and you know people don't always. Sometimes people
00:15:57
have this sense of, you know, well, what's the story? What's
00:16:01
the origin? But often people are just like, okay, this is you
00:16:05
know, this is what this is the energy that I'm carrying.
00:16:09
However, this came here. This is what I need to let go of, or
00:16:12
this is what I need to feel, and and then allow myself to
00:16:16
acknowledge so that I can you know release it and transform
00:16:21
it.
00:16:21
Manon Bolliger: Yeah, yeah. or witness it, witness, yeah, for
00:16:24
real, you know, yeah, yeah,
00:16:27
Helena Zhu: yeah. As we're
00:16:29
Manon Bolliger: go ahead, sorry. Yeah,
00:16:31
Helena Zhu: as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking about
00:16:34
one of the fears that we can sometimes have as a community or
00:16:40
collectively is just fear of our own emotions and each other's
00:16:44
emotions, and strictly speaking, one of our services, which
00:16:50
Manon Bolliger: Manon Bolliger here, and I want to thank you
00:16:52
for taking actionable steps towards engaging your healing
00:16:56
journey and helping others discover their path by watching,
00:17:02
sharing, subscribing, and reviewing these podcasts. Every
00:17:08
review and share helps spread the word on these different
00:17:12
perspectives and choices and options for healing. And to
00:17:17
thank you, I'd like to invite you to sign up to my free seven
00:17:20
sequence email tips on health and healing for everyday life,
00:17:25
and you can go to healerscafe.com. Tips. Thanks so
00:17:30
much.
00:17:35
Helena Zhu: I consider very important is giving people that
00:17:39
allowance to express and feel their emotions in our ceremony,
00:17:46
people can also have all kinds of projections. I'm not saying
00:17:51
that in a derogatory way onto what this medicine can do for
00:17:54
them, but it is possible in another era that we may not need
00:18:00
the five meo DMT to come together in the exact way we do,
00:18:05
and when we host that ceremony, and people are able to by
00:18:09
themselves erupt like a volcano or wail deeply for their loved
00:18:14
ones. But at in this day and age, five mil DMT seems to work
00:18:19
really well for people somehow to give themselves permission to
00:18:23
do all of that, but it's possible the most important
00:18:27
healing mechanism, or at least one of the most, is the fact
00:18:31
that all of this unfolded and happened in community.
00:18:36
Manon Bolliger: Well, I certainly understood that. You
00:18:40
know I've been following Gabor Mate for like quite a while, and
00:18:44
and I think it's all publicly known. But just in case, I won't
00:18:48
say too too much more. But I I've enjoyed several of his
00:18:57
assisted experiences in the sense that you know, there's
00:19:02
ceremony. There is after now. It's a very different type of
00:19:08
ayahuasca is different, and it takes longer. You know, you're
00:19:13
you're really there pretty well all night. You know, and then
00:19:18
the next day you process right, and and you know I know I wrote
00:19:25
notebooks of experiences and and insights and and and everything,
00:19:31
but again it was the the group and the facilitation,
00:19:36
Sagan: yeah,
00:19:37
Manon Bolliger: which I would say was the the key points you
00:19:42
know that that really matter and yeah personally I between the
00:19:49
two I I would take five meo DMT any day well especially the way
00:19:57
you guys do it which is. And if you could explain that in
00:20:01
greater detail, because I'm sure you'll do a better job than me.
00:20:04
But I felt like I had different experiences in the way that it
00:20:09
was taken, which allowed different parts of my processing
00:20:15
to to come out. So maybe you want to explain that and how
00:20:20
short it is for what you actually receive. Either
00:20:28
Sagan: yeah okay yeah well I mean one of the really the
00:20:32
really unique things about five meo is yeah like you said it's
00:20:35
really short so you know a single dose is you know
00:20:40
depending on the on the dose and depending on the person,
00:20:42
somewhere between 20 to 45 minutes, and then you're back.
00:20:48
And what this means is that each dose is its own experience, and
00:20:52
you're you're back and you're you're in a place to talk about
00:20:55
it, to debrief on what what showed up, to share. You know,
00:20:59
if we're in the group, to share with the others in the group,
00:21:02
you know, and to really set an intention for the next dose. So,
00:21:08
for some people, say there there might be a lot of fear that
00:21:10
might come up in a certain dose. That's you know they go into
00:21:14
that fear, they might feel you know overwhelmed, but then they
00:21:17
come back and they have that that time to really take a step
00:21:20
back and decide to go back in and and face it with a bit more
00:21:28
intentionality, a bit more you know because every dose is
00:21:31
always optional. You can always end at any point, but it's
00:21:34
always that that choice that people are making each time they
00:21:37
take a dose to go back in and and look at what needs to be
00:21:42
looked at at that point, and yeah, and our philosophy is to
00:21:45
start low and build up. So you know, each dose range, you know,
00:21:51
has certain characteristics that are, you know, sort of
00:21:55
characteristic of you know the low doses tend to be a little
00:21:59
more somatic and energetic. The the medium doses tend to be more
00:22:03
about insights into life. They can be more relational, more you
00:22:08
know a little bit more autobiographical sometimes. You
00:22:11
know, and the high doses can be this real letting go into the
00:22:15
sense of of oneness and connection with with all of life
00:22:20
and you know the universe. People use these words like
00:22:23
non-duality. You know, universal. These are the kinds
00:22:26
of experiences that those high doses often connect people
00:22:32
Manon Bolliger: to. Or if you're sensitive, like I am. Yeah, I
00:22:35
think I I had that you know feeling of total connection in a
00:22:43
moderately high, but not high high dose, right?
00:22:48
Sagan: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:51
Manon Bolliger: That was um quite quite something. It you
00:22:54
know it's it's funny. It's it's um because with you know this
00:23:00
many years of experience, you know helping people myself, you
00:23:05
know trauma is a huge part of any service you give, you know,
00:23:11
or one ends up giving, you know. But I also recognize that
00:23:19
gratefulness and pure joy and pure love and ecstasy,
00:23:26
literally. I don't mean the drug here. You know, are also really
00:23:33
suppressed feelings. You know, they're not so acknowledged
00:23:37
either. And and I remember feeling it's like, oh my gosh,
00:23:42
you know. I remember you whispered to me, "Mum, that's
00:23:46
because that's who you are," and it's like, oh my god, you know.
00:23:52
But I remember that feeling of like, wow, you know, we we can
00:23:57
live so fully, you know, and you know, and I think when I look at
00:24:05
the potential for this, you know, I I don't really think
00:24:10
that there's harm to be had. You know, I was afraid. You know,
00:24:17
which I admitted. You know, it's like I was afraid. You know,
00:24:20
it's like I hate taking any drug. Like I don't do well with
00:24:26
anything, and I hate anything artificial. But so it's like for
00:24:31
me, oh my god, I'm gonna have to do this. I swear I would never
00:24:36
do anything that wasn't at least plant based or whatever. But but
00:24:41
I can see the purity of things looking at it just from another
00:24:46
point of view. That if you're not you know mucking around with
00:24:52
frog biology, it is frogs, right?
00:24:57
Sagan: It's toads, actually. Toads. Okay, sorry. Yeah.
00:25:01
Helena Zhu: Yeah, there is a frog medicine called yeah.
00:25:03
That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's right.
00:25:08
Manon Bolliger: Okay, toads. You know, you're you're bound to.
00:25:14
It's purer in that sense. You know, there's nothing wrong with
00:25:16
chemistry per se. We are, you know, biology. We're chemistry.
00:25:21
We're energy. We're so many things, nothing is in and of
00:25:25
itself bad, right? Yeah,
00:25:28
Helena Zhu: it is a real joy talking with you about this
00:25:32
because yesterday we were talking with our massage
00:25:37
therapist for our retreat. As you know, we're looking for a
00:25:42
new land and space to house our lives and house our work. And
00:25:48
she shared a lot of wisdom with us. And I was reflecting, you
00:25:52
know, we love this work and we made it full time for us. But
00:25:56
strictly speaking, we're young healers and we're new healers.
00:26:00
And our friend, she's been a healer in multiple modalities
00:26:05
for 20 years, and you have been a healer professionally for
00:26:10
decades, and maybe unprofessionally for a long
00:26:12
time, as many healers often are in their families or just in
00:26:16
their lives.
00:26:18
Manon Bolliger: Right.
00:26:18
Helena Zhu: And I was reflecting yesterday about what does
00:26:23
healing actually mean? Because there are the individuals, in
00:26:27
your case, patients, and our case, you can call them
00:26:30
journeyers, clients that we work with, and at the same time, it's
00:26:35
being a healer for the society and collectively, and what we
00:26:41
need to offer. So, as we're facing some regulatory
00:26:48
challenges from our local authorities, I am recognizing
00:26:54
how much bravery and courage our journeyers bring to our space,
00:26:59
such as you yourself saying that you were scared. Lots of people
00:27:04
come here holding onto our couches when they're not ready,
00:27:07
or I mean, they are ready, but they don't think they're ready,
00:27:11
right? They don't. They they are very scared about what will
00:27:14
happen to them after spending a few days with us. And I'm
00:27:19
letting them know that I really don't think there's anything to
00:27:22
be afraid of, and we're being welcomed into some communities
00:27:27
that way too. We're about to visit the land that we're most
00:27:31
interested in, and our friend there said it's gonna be fun.
00:27:35
And I don't really know if I felt that way, but I'm
00:27:38
recognizing that's the energy of how we welcome people in, and
00:27:43
it's possible now. It's our turn to offer our very wild courage
00:27:49
to move to somewhere new to discover that for all of us,
00:27:52
because we're gonna be bringing our community there, and it's
00:27:55
gonna be a land that's more sovereign and that allows us to
00:28:00
live with more dignity and with more bravery because we we all
00:28:05
are aware of this one life and have the opportunity of life and
00:28:08
I hope we and other people can live the best possible life they
00:28:13
could.
00:28:15
Manon Bolliger: Well, you know, you you bring a an important
00:28:17
point at the beginning of this. I mean, the whole thing was, but
00:28:21
when you talk about healing, and I think that's a fundamental
00:28:26
part of this. Of you know, you're in fear as as long as
00:28:33
there's no part of you that can see the healing potential that
00:28:40
you might go into, you know. So, in other words, a lot of people
00:28:46
are afraid of change. Now, you know that's a more common known
00:28:52
fear, but the ability to go with the change and to flow with it,
00:29:00
not to resist it because it is. It's what's happening. It's like
00:29:04
okay, you know, resisting it never. It's not healthy, right?
00:29:10
You need to go with it. It doesn't mean become whatever you
00:29:15
call it, an obedient little slave. I'm not talking about
00:29:18
that type of obedience. I just mean flow with it. See, okay. So
00:29:25
this is what's happening now. I have choices. I can fight, or I
00:29:30
can, you know, move and then deal with this. But all of it
00:29:35
has a healing capacity. All of it is for your Ultimate
00:29:42
emancipation and your ultimate connection to divine love and
00:29:50
freedom. I mean, it it's really it is your sovereignty. You
00:29:54
know, I see it that way. You know, whereas you. Bending
00:30:02
things and twisting things and dealing with this. I mean, it's
00:30:06
another journey, and sometimes that is the the path, right? But
00:30:11
you've got to really be aligned. Is it? Does it? What? How do you
00:30:17
see healing? You know, and and and that's why, like for me, I
00:30:21
was scared when I took it first because I, in the same way, to
00:30:25
Gabor Mate, I said, you know, I've put on some weight. Do you
00:30:29
think I'm going to have a heart attack? You know, just like. And
00:30:33
he goes, I haven't seen that happen. You know, and then with
00:30:37
you guys, I thought, oh, maybe I'd stop breathing, you know, or
00:30:40
something, right? You know, because I thought, you know,
00:30:45
whatever. If you know a bit too much in in medicine, it can get
00:30:49
in the way of just letting go. You know, so it's like, but but
00:30:56
those are because neither of those, you know, having a heart
00:31:00
attack or stopping breathing have anything to do with
00:31:04
healing, right? They are pathology symptoms. But once you
00:31:09
kind of let go and go, okay, you're not going to create a
00:31:13
pathology here, at least from a medical mind, right? And it's
00:31:18
like, ha, what else could happen? Well, healing, all
00:31:24
healing, because whatever is going to come up, whatever is
00:31:27
going to be exposed, whatever you're going to release or
00:31:30
connect to, is something you didn't have. I mean, you might
00:31:34
have had but didn't recognize before. You know, it's like it's
00:31:40
it's almost new to you, right? You know, so I, I don't know. I
00:31:45
guess I see change, the ability to go with change, as extremely
00:31:50
healing.
00:31:52
Sagan: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that that
00:31:55
perspective, and you know, I think that, yeah, that idea of
00:31:58
being willing to let go of rigidity and and to flow, and
00:32:04
there's something very there's something very sort of egoless
00:32:08
about that. I think because you know our egos hold on to well,
00:32:13
this is how it is. This is how it's supposed to be. Right. And
00:32:16
there's that sense of control and that sense of you know the
00:32:18
the particular form. But to be to be like water is to be you
00:32:25
know willing to follow the contours of you know of of the
00:32:30
vessel, follow the contours of the land, and you know and see
00:32:34
what what form is actually being called for, you know, by the
00:32:38
world.
00:32:39
Manon Bolliger: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I think
00:32:43
that's how we we listen best, you know, the ability because,
00:32:50
you know, as a as somebody who offers healing of anything, or
00:32:56
being a vessel for healing to take place in, or a womb, you
00:33:01
know, it's yeah, it's the ability to to really receive
00:33:08
information without judgment. It's like wow, interesting. You
00:33:14
know, like it's just it's going with it. You know, that's
00:33:18
Sagan: yeah,
00:33:21
Manon Bolliger: yeah. I mean, you know, our our time is up,
00:33:23
but I'm happy to keep going on on healing. It depends on how
00:33:28
you go.
00:33:29
Sagan: Happy to go as well. Yeah, that
00:33:30
Helena Zhu: sounds great.
00:33:31
Manon Bolliger: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was thinking,
00:33:34
what are the obstacles to healing? What are the things
00:33:39
that get in in your experience, you know you've you have helped
00:33:44
now a lot of people. What are the things in general,
00:33:49
obviously?
00:33:50
intro: Thank you for joining us at the Healers Cafe with Manon
00:33:53
Bolliger. Continue your healing journey by visiting
00:33:57
thehealerscafe.com and her website, and discover how to
00:34:02
listen to your body and reboot for optimal health.